You've Been a Bad Agent

Wilhelm (00:04.029)
What up? We're back.

Matt (00:05.279)
We're back! Bro, bro, bro, right, my God, I'm getting notifications already. I need to turn myself on sleep or something. Focus Mo, do not disturb. Bro, my phone is broken. I have three phones at the moment. All of them have different SIM cards in them because I have like travel SIMs. I finally got a Portuguese SIM. I have my English SIM.

Wilhelm (00:15.839)
Is your phone losing battery again because you're blowing up?

Matt (00:33.959)
and I have a work one and like, I have three phones, none of which, yeah, but it's like, it's been in my cupboard for ages. I finally decided I was gonna start using it. It's nice to be to put it away, you know? But yeah, it's been in my cupboard for ages, so I got it out.

Wilhelm (00:37.683)
You have a work phone. Damn. Look at you.

Wilhelm (00:48.583)
Is it, do you have these phones?

Matt (00:53.088)
What do you mean? What are you going say?

Wilhelm (00:54.495)
Do you need to round-robin your Twitter notifications across these three phones so that the load is appropriately shed and handled?

Matt (01:02.309)
Exactly! Now you understand! No, the reason I have three phones is none of them last for more than three hours of usage.

Wilhelm (01:05.567)
You

Wilhelm (01:12.101)
damn.

Matt (01:13.505)
So like they're just all broken.

So I think what I need to do is trade in two of them, the two that are mine and get like a really good one. So I might do that.

Wilhelm (01:17.939)
know that feeling.

Wilhelm (01:22.077)
yeah, Nice, nice, nice. It's funny, I had a good thing going for like maybe five, six, seven years where I would get a new phone every like 18 months or something, mostly because the battery wore out. Yeah, I would just get like the latest and I tried to align it roughly, well, I guess you can't really align 18 months cycle with new iPhones or whatever. But I think just before moving, I was like, this is crazy. Like my previous like iPhone.

Matt (01:35.041)
What? Yeah, the batteries die.

Wilhelm (01:50.911)
was 13, 15, I didn't even know what we're at. I think I had a 15 and I was like, it's just not working anymore. And then I got the 16, even though I would have usually waited for the 17, because the battery was just so crap. It was like awful.

Matt (01:54.573)
Yeah, 17 just came out.

Matt (02:05.899)
Yeah, I think that they're good for a year and then you can stretch it to two and then if you start going like in three reigns, you are completely cooked.

Wilhelm (02:16.106)
Completely cooked, completely cooked,

Matt (02:17.578)
Yeah, completed. So this is an iPhone. I think this is a 14 and the port just died as well. So now I'm on a, I'm a wireless charger only boy and the battery only lasts about three hours. But when I wireless charge it, the whole thing feels like it's about to blow up. It all gets so hot. So yeah, anyway, that was a fun little interlude. Dude, can we play the intro?

Wilhelm (02:21.663)
no, wait, so how do you...

Wilhelm (02:33.885)
Nice, nice, nice, nice.

Wilhelm (02:49.983)
It's so good.

Matt (02:50.432)
I mean, to like my kite board.

Wilhelm (02:53.311)
Look at that Yeah, to be honest, was Matt just gave me a tour of the his new place before we started recording and I feel like I Want to see more you never sent me the floor plan. Also, I just remembered I requested that is that a Well time to make one with Nano Banana Pro 2 right now No, I'm kidding

Matt (03:04.812)
Dude! Okay, yeah, I don't think I have a full plan.

Matt (03:12.298)
Okay, I reckon...

I reckon I can draw it. I'll draw it for you. Yeah. You know when I first went to university, so I mechanical design, or mechanical engineering, and when I first went to university, our mechanical design lectures were all pen and paper. No, not even pen and paper. They were pencil, A3 or A2 paper, sometimes A1 if you were feeling a bit extra, big easel, rulers, set squares, measuring, Jesus.

Wilhelm (03:19.607)
old school.

Wilhelm (03:34.111)
That's cool.

Wilhelm (03:40.702)
Hell yeah.

Matt (03:45.74)
was awful. And... Yeah.

Wilhelm (03:46.153)
This is like what Americans think university in Europe is just like everyone's just in a small classroom with an easel.

Matt (03:52.694)
So it was quite a big classroom, but we did have easels. They're not even called easels. They're called something else when it's like not artistry. I don't know what it's called. Anyway, but it was giggle because I just spent a year before like working on mechanical design in industry. And then...

Wilhelm (03:57.055)
That's cool.

Wilhelm (04:06.748)
It was giggle. Did you just say, is that a new term? That's hilarious. It was giggle. No, I know it's a giggle, but it was giggle. No, I'm going to start using that now. Sorry, continue.

Matt (04:09.868)
It's old term, that's old man, that's me showing my A's. It's a giggle, it was a giggle.

Matt (04:19.101)
It was a giggle. I just can't speak properly.

Matt (04:25.855)
No, I just spent the year before working with real commercial tools and that uses computers, like actual computers. And then I went back to the Stone Age at university. I think there's a metaphor in there.

Wilhelm (04:30.236)
Yeah.

Wilhelm (04:36.71)
And then you, yeah, there's a metaphor. It's funny. remember the one of the funniest moments in my degree, which had, it was interesting because it had lots of, introductions to, I swear we had like an introduction to project management module, like three times. And it was basically the same content every time. And the third time it felt like they were really taking the piss. because, and it was a different lecturer, every guy, but often it was the lecturer had like,

Matt (04:53.64)
Hahaha.

Matt (04:58.848)
Hahaha!

Wilhelm (05:04.562)
gotten the slides from someone else, you know, and was just like flipping through it like, yeah, okay, we can talk about that. yeah. So, you know, really high quality British education there, but.

Matt (05:06.95)
Nice.

Matt (05:12.906)
Is this why you had so much time to start a company?

Wilhelm (05:17.47)
Exactly. No, actually, actually I'll come back to that in a sec. But, um, in that lecture, we were learning about project management tools and we were learning about GitHub in this lecture. But the funny thing is, yeah, but in, the same time, as I was hearing this, I was doing contracting work for GitHub. And I thought that was just so beautifully ironic. Like I was working in the lecture. So I just had to like stand up and take a selfie. Like no one is going to believe this. Like I'm just been introduced to GitHub.

Matt (05:28.991)
in like an academic sense.

Matt (05:41.865)
Yeah.

Wilhelm (05:47.24)
How funny.

Matt (05:48.939)
I never got introduced to GitHub at uni. We had to zip our files and send them by email, or we'd put them on the SharePoint and send him a link. We had three coding assignments, I think, while I was at university, of which all three of them, my lecturer failed to run. None of them ran on his machine. Which I... Yeah, so good.

Wilhelm (06:11.73)
That's delightful. Wow.

Matt (06:17.95)
Got really great marks there.

Wilhelm (06:18.334)
While we're here slagging off universities, I remembered a moment the other day. So it's funny, I'm redoing or so much of my own personal agent code base is like in Python, right? And I never bothered to set up like some of the stuff you would usually set up at the beginning, like linting and formatting and all this stuff, because like, whatever, I'm not writing this code.

Matt (06:32.72)
Mmm... Awful stuff.

Wilhelm (06:46.416)
And I looked at it today and like it is decently formatted, but it's definitely not super like PEP eight compliant or whatever. You, if you're familiar with PEP eight, like the, linting formatting rules in Python. Yeah.

Matt (06:55.281)
Yup. I am familiar with peps.

Wilhelm (07:00.046)
Nice, nice, nice. And I was like, yeah, this is, you I should probably set up some formatting. Like it'll probably catch some issues that just like even the smart models like sometimes miss out on or whatever. Like I think even like the...

Matt (07:10.088)
Yeah, like this is like feedback loops, dude. You need feedback loops, not linting necessarily, but like type checking and stuff.

Wilhelm (07:15.345)
Well, yeah, I am. I mean, the Python typing story, think, unfortunately, gets in the way more often than it helps. I think it's slightly a different story in type. Yeah, I think in TypeScript, I don't know, maybe it's gotten better. But it reminded me of something that happened in university, which was like, we had one lecturer, actually a guy I really liked, who taught us like some machine learning stuff back in like 2017. So it felt like, yeah, was like good guy. And he really cared about teaching us well and stuff.

Matt (07:23.561)
What do think?

Wilhelm (07:44.255)
But some of the code he sent us, some of the Python code was just awful to read. And I was like, you know, you could like use a formatter like, like pep8 linting so that it's, it looks good and it follows the rules and whatever. And he says, yeah, yeah, I'm familiar with pep8. I try to follow the rules. I'm like, what do you mean? It's you read the pep, you read the rules and you manually follow them.

Matt (08:04.585)
I was told this. No dude, dude, I was told.

I was told this by a friend of mine who just went to university to do machine learning and I told him about formatters and he was like, what? So you just like, no, I told him about linters first and he was like, dude, doesn't it take so much time to like go in and fix all of your like linting? Like, I'm just getting like formatting errors the whole time. this is dumb. And then I introduced him to the format command.

or the Lint Fix Commander, whichever one it was. He went into university and I think he was God for about a week. Everyone was like, whoa. Yeah.

Wilhelm (08:39.742)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Wilhelm (08:46.81)
Nice, nice, he was God for me. Yeah, that's awesome. That's very cool. I do actually think that university, I would, I feel like change, well, I know I feel like change various opinions on this, but I feel like university is totally just like good time to like grow up. And I think having a lot of free time is great. I'm super grateful that my degree while academically being a bit mid or below mid even allowed me with tons of free time to build lots of crap and like

Matt (08:53.769)
Crazy.

Matt (09:06.673)
Yeah.

Matt (09:12.68)
You

Matt (09:16.713)
It was a prestigious institution,

Wilhelm (09:16.816)
explore various interests.

sure. Yes. I don't know, man. I feel like it's prestigious because so UCL, I think it has a really good medical school and has some really good research and that makes it go really high in the rankings, you know? But then if you don't, if you're not in the medical school or if you're not there to do research, you're just an undergrad, then I don't really know if the ranking matters or like, I don't know, whatever. It's all about the brand, right?

Matt (09:24.04)
Hahaha

Matt (09:33.244)
Yeah, yep.

Matt (09:45.639)
Yeah, my mom did medical research at UCL. She was a smart cookie. Yeah, I know. Yeah. I think I agree with you. So my advice about university, because I do get asked quite a lot actually. I got asked by, normally by cab drivers. Funnily enough. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Wilhelm (09:48.793)
damn, smart, that's impressive.

Wilhelm (09:59.3)
Mmm. yeah.

Matt (10:07.016)
Yeah, so normally by cab drivers I get asked and it's like my son is doing or my child is doing this, they're like, but I just don't know what they should do in this world. Like it's like really weird, aren't all your jobs about to get taken by AI and all this stuff? And I'm like, yeah, maybe, I don't know. Got me a bit stoic about it, you know? But then they ask for advice about university and like I...

Wilhelm (10:20.357)
Mm-hmm.

Wilhelm (10:24.433)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Wilhelm (10:30.609)
Yeah, totally.

Matt (10:35.502)
I don't really have like great advice for university because I think I messed mine up quite hard. picked, yeah, I thought I liked maths and physics and I liked playing with old cars and like just old bits of metal that I lived on a farm. So it was like, there's just loads of random stuff around and like motorbikes and stuff. I was really into motorbikes and it's kind of thing you can do when you live in like West Yorkshire and there's no one around.

Wilhelm (10:41.421)
really?

Wilhelm (10:56.349)
That's awesome.

Matt (11:05.544)
Um, so I just assumed that like I would go and I didn't want to become a mechanic. I wanted to go to university. Um, so I was, ah, I'll just do mechanical engineering, right? Like that, that must be the best, that must be the next best thing. Go and I don't know. And then, then very quickly at university, I realized that the only mechanical engineering jobs, um, are like either on site, either on site in F1 or in some like Marie, in some like defense company. And that's like,

Wilhelm (11:30.621)
Mmm.

Matt (11:34.13)
They're like pretty cool jobs, but you have to either really love F1 or like be all right with defense, or they're like in an office somewhere, normally in the Midlands, specking steel pipes. And I was like, sweet. Yeah, get me out of here. So I think if I'd have had a little bit more, a little bit more humility in that moment being like, maybe let's not just do the hardest degree that I think I can find.

Wilhelm (11:36.297)
Mm-hmm.

Wilhelm (11:41.594)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Wilhelm (11:50.917)
Yeah, damn.

Matt (12:02.927)
I might've done something kind of cool. Like when I was at university, I founded this degree called Computer Science with Innovation that they do at Bristol. And that sounds awesome. When I was at uni, I was like, my God, they just do the most fun modules of computer science and they do this like kind of soft extra thing that actually just seems to involve startup building and like, like trying to build a company. And when I was at school, I thought like that whole thing would just be like making PowerPoint presentations and sounded really dumb. Ironically,

Wilhelm (12:02.95)
Mm-hmm.

Wilhelm (12:09.021)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Wilhelm (12:16.701)
Mm-hmm.

Right, Mm, that's cool, that's cool.

Wilhelm (12:30.053)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matt (12:31.61)
being an engineer in the UK is a lot of making PowerPoint presentations. So, and Excel. So I just think it's kind of fun. Like you've got to be careful what you wish for.

Wilhelm (12:35.462)
Mmm.

Wilhelm (12:41.501)
You go, did you enjoy making PowerPoint presentations like in school and stuff? I fucking loved it.

Matt (12:45.627)
No.

Okay. So that is actually probably the difference between you and me. And that is why you did a degree that had business in part of the name and I didn't. And I actually kind of regret that now because I made the sickest PowerPoint a couple of days ago, but I didn't use PowerPoint at all. This is a good segue. Just react, just react. So everything, was a, it's a website, it's deployed, but obviously like to me, it works like a PowerPoint presentation.

Wilhelm (12:51.517)
Ha ha ha!

Wilhelm (13:04.349)
what did you use? nice. Yeah, that's what the cool kids do.

Matt (13:15.749)
Like it has got transitions. I can go from one slide to another slide. And if I want to build something, I just ask the clanker to like fucking do the thing. And, and the cool thing about react is like CSS and styles and like just, just the fact you're in the web and it's like, can be this like rich, immersive, immersive experience where fuck man, PowerPoint presentations. Imagine trying to put that into boxes and some horrible styling and

Wilhelm (13:18.876)
Mm.

Wilhelm (13:22.909)
hell yeah.

Wilhelm (13:38.533)
Mm-hmm, totally.

Wilhelm (13:44.029)
Yeah, I am. And dragging them around yourself. I think this is really cool approach. I think the only thing... So I was at a conference on Tuesday and there was... was like the Pi AI conference. It a good conference. As in Python. Yeah. Not... Yeah. Screw you, man. Biggest language in the world? Maybe. It runs on the Mars Rover? Okay.

Matt (13:45.86)
Google Slides or whatever.

Matt (13:58.023)
Wait, pi as in like pi.dev.

okay, sorry. I apologize. I thought you were talking about something cool.

Wilhelm (14:14.045)
Actually, think Node runs on the Miles Rover as well. Anyway, there was the odd person who did their presentation with a web-based thing. I think the one place where it falls apart in beauty, stylistic beauty, when you, at the very last mile of this, don't figure out how to full screen the browser properly.

Matt (14:14.532)
Yeah, yeah, okay, cool.

Wilhelm (14:38.535)
so that the URL bar is still showing while you're giving the presentation. And then you have this ugly like .html or whatever, like in the middle of your presentation, I can't stop looking at it. So I think that's the, that's the P, if you figure that out, then I'm with you.

Matt (14:39.173)
Yeah.

Yeah, that's dumb.

Matt (14:50.02)
Yeah, okay.

You can full screen your browser. There's a green button in the top left hand corner of Macs. That does the full screen for you.

Wilhelm (14:55.58)
Yeah, yeah, totally.

Wilhelm (14:59.613)
Yeah, maybe this guy was on something else. That's cool. What's the presentation about?

Matt (15:06.022)
It's about code mode. I'll send it to you after this. It's really fun. And because it's like, because the whole thing about code mode is it's like evaling untrusted code. I can just write code or have like all these templates and just like click through different things and then just run it in the browser because it's not running in the browser. It's running on a server and you can prove that by

Wilhelm (15:10.173)
nice, nice, nice, nice.

Wilhelm (15:24.509)
That's great.

Matt (15:29.126)
getting it to access external deployed resources and deploying something on demand and all of this sort of wild shit and then getting a new URL and just navigating through that and just doing the whole thing in the browser is wild. I also have a sandbox demo in there as well for a CLI because this whole code mode versus or MCP versus CLI thing, have a sandbox demo. And that's really sick because you go to the page with the sandbox demo and there's just a terminal there and it logs you into a sandbox.

Wilhelm (15:36.156)
That's great.

Wilhelm (15:45.213)
Mm.

Wilhelm (15:57.597)
That's cool.

Matt (15:58.701)
And then there's already, I've just got the CLI like preloaded in the sandbox. And so I could just, just, just use it from a website. Yeah. So cool.

Wilhelm (16:02.908)
Perfect for Cloudflare. Where else could you even run this stuff?

Matt (16:12.781)
I don't know, you could do it yourself. Like it would be very tough, but you could like, my whole demo could be like a couple of, like one VPS that you expose some services on and then you just use all those services. Like one of them would have to be like a code interpreter. One of them would have to be like the SaaS platform, the Crud app, but basically the everything acts on. The other one would have to be a sandbox, like some sort of like Kubernetes pods or something or yeah.

Wilhelm (16:13.476)
I wouldn't.

Wilhelm (16:40.528)
Yeah.

Matt (16:41.72)
You could do it. It's just hassle. I'm actually gonna try and do it myself because I think it's good to know how like the other half live and like how tough it actually is. Like, bearing in mind this demo took me like an hour and a half or something to make. And I've got a raspberry pie. Yeah, go on.

Wilhelm (16:47.95)
Mmm.

Ha ha ha ha ha

Wilhelm (16:59.278)
In Stoicism, I believe this is called practicing poverty.

Matt (17:05.167)
my God. Yeah, I didn't quite mean it in that way. Is that kind of like camping? Do you see camping like that?

Wilhelm (17:06.202)
You have to practice poverty occasionally to reset your hedonic treadmill.

Wilhelm (17:14.524)
I don't love camping, so I guess yes. So I read a book once about this and I think the examples of practicing...

Matt (17:16.098)
Because I know you don't like camping.

Wilhelm (17:26.844)
This feels so cancelable, right? I think it's like more like you should like not wear shoes and socks one day and just go to work.

Matt (17:27.278)
You

Yeah, we got to

Matt (17:36.792)
Yeah, that just sounds quite dangerous. They're like needles and stuff.

Wilhelm (17:41.634)
So it makes, but how often are you grateful for your shoes, you know, in that way? It's supposed to help you appreciate what you have more. So if you really live a life without shoes, then I think, yeah, you'll be like, damn, whoever invented shoes. Thank you.

Matt (17:46.564)
think there are some things about.

Yeah, so

Matt (17:55.65)
You would appreciate it. And people do do like a rough sleep night where they raise money and things like that. And I respect that, I guess. I think that, yeah, it's kind of a different level to camping with a fancy tent and bits.

Wilhelm (18:08.086)
Or, you know, do you ever have a thing where only one of your AirPods connects and the other one's not playing music?

Matt (18:15.012)
Dude, this is not, this is not equivalent.

Wilhelm (18:17.916)
Just accept it. Just listen on the one airport and appreciate when they reconnect a few days later.

Matt (18:24.612)
I have some wired headphones that I used for a while. do know the wired Apple ones? And the ports on every single one of my phones broke really quickly, like as this one broke, because I think, I don't know, I use them in the climbing gym. They sometimes get wet. Like I live by the sea now and like the previous ones all went in the water. And so whenever I use plug-in headphones, everything's mad crackly. And I put up with that for quite a long time. But do you know...

I had a flatmate at university who was just so good at putting up with stuff. So he had like this one, he had a big light in the middle of his room. If he's listening to this now, he's gonna hate me so much. And he had like a lamp in the corner of his room. And just one day his big light stopped working, just like the light bulb went. And so he's like, oh, okay, done that, I've got a lamp.

Wilhelm (19:14.522)
yeah.

Matt (19:18.948)
So he's like moving the lamp around the room with him. Like when he's in bed, the lamp's by his bed. When he's at his desk, the lamp's by his desk. And he's just got this one lamp. And then the lamp light bulb broke. He was just in pitch black. like he was using his phone torch for like two weeks until someone, until we were literally like, I'm not gonna say it's like, I mean, we can bleep that out. Or I kind of didn't really say his name, but I was like, I was like, dude, dude, dude, dude, dude, you a.

Wilhelm (19:30.972)
no, what do do now?

Wilhelm (19:42.96)
No man, can't be...

Matt (19:48.023)
You know, you can't just go buy a light bulb. Like they're really not that expensive. Like, I mean, we went out and drank like four pints last night. you imagine a light bulb, a light bulb is like half a pint. It's going to be all right. You'll be fine. You'll be fine.

Wilhelm (19:50.982)
haha

Wilhelm (19:59.63)
Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Or less, right?

Matt (20:05.687)
mean London Pints are expensive, but we went to Union Bristol, so it's about pretty similar prices.

Wilhelm (20:09.819)
Did I ever tell you the story of how I wanted to live really frugally after quitting my job in 2019? And I actually moved somewhere close to where you lived in London, although not any, yeah, so I moved to Shadwell. I had like a nice one bed in...

Matt (20:19.701)
no tell me, but might be relatable.

Matt (20:28.78)
Dude, this was when you were, this was, okay, I was so confused when you told me you moved to Shadywell. I was like, holy shit, why, why, why?

Wilhelm (20:36.709)
Haha, is that its name? I've heard Stabwell as well. But yeah, I had like a nice one bit, it's not that bad, yeah.

Matt (20:40.738)
I just call it Shadywell. It's not that bad. just feels pretty dodgy when you're underground by the station at dark.

Wilhelm (20:49.869)
Yeah, and there's like a massive big road and I feel like London doesn't have like, yeah. So I had like a nice...

Matt (20:53.443)
I'm pretty sure someone put super glue in my bike lock there. I'm pretty sure that someone did. Because my bike lock was never the same again. It took me like 40 minutes to try and unlock it. It eventually unlocked and I had to send it back to the company and I just complained it didn't work because I was like, dude, they were like, can we have it back please? We've never had this before. Yeah. Anyway.

Wilhelm (20:59.182)
my god. Unbelievable.

Wilhelm (21:07.131)
Jeez.

Wilhelm (21:12.571)
Stories of Shadwell. Yeah, no, was a brief period in life. It was like, I lived there only for six months actually. But I was just like trying to be, was like, yeah, know, have my own boss now, but like don't have, you know, or have like less income, need to figure out how to make this work. But I lived like a student, let me just live like a student again. That was a really fun time. So I found like a really, you know, cheap place in like a converted school or something. And I had like a room.

and it was shared bathrooms and stuff. I think it was 850 pounds a month rent, which was much cheaper than I was paying before. And it was in Shabla, which is walking distance to the city. It's actually kind of a great location. Well, it's a great location in terms of proximity to things, maybe not in terms of neighborhood vibes.

Matt (22:02.626)
It's a long walk to the city, because I lived on the city side of Shadwell. And I would say I was a nice walk to the city. But like, Shadwell Station is another 15, 20 minutes behind me.

Wilhelm (22:12.569)
Yeah, totally. And the stations aren't actually that well connected. Anyway, the reason this comes up is because the shower and toilet and sink was in the basement. So I had to go down, every time I wanted to go to the toilet, I had to go down two flights of stairs and there was barely a light actually that worked. So for my birthday, I got myself like a head torch so I could actually see my teeth when I brushed my teeth.

And then, yeah, it was rough. And then one time I actually, I locked the door of the bathroom and I just heard something fall off the other side. And then I couldn't get back out again. I was stuck in this underground bathroom for like 30 minutes, just like shouting like, help, help. And then luckily there was a maintenance guy who like came and rescued me who happened to be there or something. I think I got really lucky.

Matt (22:42.655)
Nice.

Matt (23:03.241)
No.

Wilhelm (23:11.959)
Anyway, and then after six months, was like, that's enough of that.

Matt (23:12.257)
That's wild.

Matt (23:16.801)
But the bad thing is that is actually still quite expensive. When I moved to London, I moved, I think mine was like 900 or 950, which for anyone listening, like this must, this will either sound obseemly expensive or it will sound maddeningly cheap depending on whether you're in San Francisco, New York or the rest of the world. Yeah.

Wilhelm (23:30.649)
Yeah, I am.

Wilhelm (23:41.107)
Mm. Right. Yeah, I feel like that probably in London, it's more expensive now, right? All this stuff. Yeah.

Matt (23:46.452)
Yeah, I was like 950 I think I moved in. I had a box room. It was pretty good. I wouldn't say I was practicing anything tough in life. It was like, no, definitely not. It was pretty good. Dude, can we talk about,

Wilhelm (23:54.555)
You might practice the equivalent.

Matt (24:05.043)
I had loads of ideas when we started this. I've missed you dude, it's been ages.

Wilhelm (24:08.123)
It's been three weeks. Yeah, what have you been up to? I feel like I've been up to a few things. We can go through them. But yeah, what...

Matt (24:15.157)
Yeah, Colin, what have you been up to? Let's talk about you first. Go on, tell me. Tell me everything. Tell me everything.

Wilhelm (24:22.629)
think where to start. I'm really hyped right now about I think I'm getting my Ricci Mini next week. Do you know the Ricci Mini? It's a robot.

Matt (24:31.009)
What is...

Matt (24:36.353)
shit! It's the desktop one from Hugging... Is it the desktop one? does Damien... Damien has one of these from, LeaCo? Does he have one?

Wilhelm (24:40.003)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Wilhelm (24:45.615)
Hmm from yeah, I don't yeah, I don't know does it

Matt (24:51.656)
I want one, I want one, but it's more stuff in my flat.

Wilhelm (24:56.283)
For people who don't know, it's a little robot that sits on your desk and the idea is for it to be an experimentation platform for embodied compute. So the guy can't do anything, doesn't have arms, doesn't have legs or wheels, but it can wiggle his head. It has a little antenna to express emotion, so it can express curiosity or you can talk to it it'll react more like a human face or head, I guess. Yeah, so it has a speaker.

Matt (25:20.892)
Can it say things?

Wilhelm (25:24.079)
But you wire it up to like an LLM basically, right? So like you plug it into your computer. I don't have mine yet. And actually you have to assemble it yourself, which is kind of fun. It takes like three hours to assemble. But I've watched some videos about it it's just, it's adorable. Like I'm so psyched for it. Yeah. And it has, so it has a camera, it has microphone, it has a speaker and it has like, can move its head and it can like express emotions that way basically.

Matt (25:49.648)
so cool okay so you you always have these like cool gadgets i remember seeing your screens that you had around the house you had those like those like what they called like like yeah yeah were they the company that got did they get acquired by like someone else i feel like i tried to yeah was they acquired by model k yeah because i tried to i tried to buy one i just couldn't

Wilhelm (25:54.627)
Love a gadget.

Wilhelm (26:02.115)
yeah, the tidbits.

Wilhelm (26:08.942)
By modal. Yeah, yeah, kind of random. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Wilhelm (26:17.05)
Yeah, there's always, I feel like, a few comments around. The latest one, I think, is called Terminal. Let me just try and send a link somewhere here.

Matt (26:26.058)
So maybe an over-use name now.

Wilhelm (26:29.132)
Yeah, this one, I actually don't love it as much as the tidbit. It's, but it's, it's a, it's a good product. Like it's, yeah, maybe I just haven't had it long enough.

Matt (26:39.231)
Dude, I can't see anything. I saw thing and then it just, nothing happened. Yeah, let's go for it. No, sorry, you were saying about your robot and then I fully distracted you by saying, by hyping up your.

Wilhelm (26:45.816)
Let me send it on WhatsApp.

Wilhelm (26:53.762)
No, no. mean, I'm just excited that it'd come basically. I'm not exactly sure like what I'm going to do with it yet. but probably I'm going to wire it up to my agent and it can be like another, like my own personal agent, right? I talk to it in Slack, most of the time, but then also it has a mobile app so I can track like my location, and like do like spaced repetition, all sorts of stuff, browse all my stuff. and I think feel like this robot will maybe probably just be another.

manifestation for my personal open-claw inspired agent to do stuff. Like, I don't know, maybe it will notice when I look sad and schedule a therapy appointment. I don't know. We'll have to play around with it.

Matt (27:38.559)
was so funny.

Wilhelm (27:39.609)
I feel like some people are really able to deal well with the ambiguity of like, hey, I'm just gonna like buy this thing for tinkering and then tinker and let my ideas run loose. And a lot of people really don't get what I'm talking about unless there's like a really specific strong use case. Like with OpenClaw, the whole point is that you like look at what your various small issues are in life and then how an agent might help you. But if you approach it from like a

Matt (27:58.025)
Yeah.

Wilhelm (28:08.698)
I need this thing to do one big major thing for me, like on the order of, I don't know, find me a job or like deliver my groceries or something. It's just like, that's just not good enough. It's just not how it works. It's just the wrong way to think about it.

Matt (28:25.789)
Yeah, no, I agree with you. Okay, so I've been very inspired by, you know Thomas Angkorne? He's one of my colleagues. He has like a, you should follow him on Twitter by the way. Like he's got back on Twitter recently. He has way too little followers. Yeah, you definitely should follow him.

Wilhelm (28:33.356)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yep.

Wilhelm (28:42.058)
nice, yes everyone should do that. I'm pretty sure I follow him. I'm still off Twitter by the way and I feel great about it to be honest. But that's a story for another time.

Matt (28:48.614)
Yeah, that's good. That's good. I keep on making mistakes on Twitter, which is not ideal, but because now I have loads of followers, they keep on getting brought up in my face. I need to be careful.

Wilhelm (28:59.948)
Is it, are they mistakes or is it rage bait, which is exactly what you need to be doing for attention-maxxing?

Matt (29:11.198)
That sentence. that's everything that's wrong with us right now.

Wilhelm (29:16.794)
It is everything that's wrong with us, yeah, I actually pretty agree.

Matt (29:20.094)
Anyway, what Thomas has done is very, very, Thomas is very wholesome. He mostly posts pictures of his dogs and of his pie, raspberry pie K3 clusters.

Wilhelm (29:32.25)
wait, this is because he had his own cloud exit, right? Isn't that what he said? It's hilarious.

Matt (29:38.495)
Thomas had, yeah, this is what I'm talking about, about reading, about living like other people live. Thomas works at Cloudflare, right? And he has access to the best compute in the world. Like the best of everything. I feel like the best infrastructure primitives, the best serverless stuff. And he was like, he's been so stoked about it. And he works on workers observability. So he spends a lot of time of his day turning very tough.

Clickhouse data and like other log data and metrics and stuff, turning all of that into really, really beautiful stuff in the dashboard and the website and making that accessible to agents and all of that sort of cool stuff. So that's his day job. And his like non-day job is his like evening job is yeah, a cloud, a personal cloud exit.

which I find absolutely hysterical. so he has, so he was always running his personal website. He was always running that on a pie that he had like semi permanently plugged in in his kitchen. So every time he wanted to use his kettle or something, it got unplugged and his website went down, which I thought was quite funny. And then he, and then more recently he's like fully upgraded and

Wilhelm (30:38.138)
That's so funny, yeah.

Wilhelm (30:56.078)
Yeah.

Matt (31:05.853)
There's a guy, one of his colleagues in that team is like mega good infrastructure engineer and just like told us all how to put like K3s on it. And I think he didn't have to tell Thomas, Thomas knew, but he told me. And so I need to put this into action because Thomas has got like K3s, he's got like full Kubernetes and his agents could spawn new pods on this machine. And so he can have like, like replic, like new replicating applications that build themselves and like,

Wilhelm (31:28.473)
Nice.

Matt (31:35.453)
It's all like, yeah. And it's all using Pi agent under the hood or the Pi SDK under the hood, which apparently really, really nice. Yeah, from Mario from Bad Logic Games, which I need to hear from him the origin of that handle. yeah, Thomas's Cloud Exit, hysterical, absolutely hysterical. I think he keeps talking about running, he's running loads of random stuff on his Pi's.

Wilhelm (31:41.646)
Yeah, yeah, from Mario.

Wilhelm (31:53.328)
Mmm. Yeah, pie is really cool.

Wilhelm (32:04.729)
That's awesome. Yeah. And for context also, in case anyone doesn't know this, I feel like the whole cloud exit thing really became a thing when like DHH of like, it was, yeah. And they were like, we're paying like, I don't know, 20 million a year or whatever it is to like AWS. Let's like do it much cheaper, our own hardware. We have like very consistent demand. We don't need to scale up. We don't need to pay the cloud premium. So they had like this three year plan for

Matt (32:05.137)
Yeah, so funny.

Matt (32:13.488)
I was going to say it was DHH, wasn't it? Yeah.

Matt (32:22.384)
Yeah.

Wilhelm (32:32.387)
getting off the cloud, think the hardest thing to get off was like S3 or something like that. So it was like a huge money saving thing for them and now they're running their own rack or whatever or pay data center to run it. But it's hilarious for a person to do it when you can like host your website for free, know? Love that humor.

Matt (32:43.268)
Yeah, that's...

Matt (32:47.717)
Yeah.

It's so funny, but more people should like, like HomeLab stuff. I think if you have a machine running around or like not running hopefully, but hanging around that is, that like works and is maybe even plugged in anyway, like Cloudflare tunnels are free, like pretty much free, like they're free. And so you can expose any ports on your local machine.

on a desktop computer that's plugged in anyway and like just run a website that anyone can use it. Man, imagine if someone had told me that when I started programming. I had like Raspberry Pi's running with like random websites and stuff running like I had like my family's calendar running. No one used it apart from me on like a internal IP address on our local network. dude, imagine if you'd have told me, yeah, you just run this one command.

Wilhelm (33:30.819)
Hmm.

Wilhelm (33:37.273)
Mm-hmm.

Wilhelm (33:41.111)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (33:47.259)
and it's like on the internet. Fuck, I mean, it would have been sick. Yeah, people nowadays.

Wilhelm (33:48.322)
Yeah, yeah,

Wilhelm (33:52.79)
It's nice how much better the networking stuff has become, it? I feel like there used to be some...

I'm trying to remember now, you've just jogged a very old memory, which is I'm pretty sure I was like back in the gaming days, like I was running like a Minecraft server or something like that, or like a TeamSpeak server or something like that. And like that had to be exposed somehow. And I think the way you would, like I think I literally opened up ports on like my parents' Wi-Fi. Yeah. But then the other problem was you...

Matt (34:04.795)
you

Matt (34:20.623)
Yeah, it's port forwarding. It's port forwarding on your router. Yeah, that's it. Because I also tried to do it. It's pretty dodgy.

Wilhelm (34:28.717)
you had some local daemon running on your Windows computer, is pretty good, that would monitor your IP address, right? Because your home IP address can change and they would just make it static or something or they would have another IP that was static and forward it to yours.

Matt (34:44.698)
No, so the way I did it in the end was you go into your router settings and you can set static IPs for devices dependent on their Mac address. And so I did that. for me, that worked for, yeah, for the local network. then you, no, no, no, but then you have something running on your local network. You have something running on your machine as long as the IP address on your machine is the same.

Wilhelm (34:56.569)
But that's just for the local network. yeah, that's what you were doing. Local network. Yeah.

Matt (35:11.983)
then you can open a port on your router. I think was how it worked.

Wilhelm (35:16.023)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I was just using another layer on top, which gave you kind of like a tail scale magic URL domain or something so that even when your home public IP changed, it would... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly.

Matt (35:31.291)
Oh, because your ISP changes your public, changes your local IP. Yeah, yeah, it changes your public IP. Yeah, yeah, I never worked that one out. Dude, such a wild world. Yeah. I reckon if you asked Claude that question though, and said, don't recommend me any external tools, it would still recommend you that approach. Because there must be, so do you remember Instructables?

Wilhelm (35:40.181)
It's all solved now with...

Wilhelm (35:51.107)
Hmm.

No.

Matt (35:55.011)
Instructables, I'm pretty sure it was called Instructables. was a website that was kind of like wiki how, but better. And it was like more involved. were ones like how to make an electric car and like how to like, yeah, all of this random stuff and all of that. was addicted to that website. I loved it. It so good.

Wilhelm (36:01.373)
cool.

Wilhelm (36:12.813)
That sounds great. What else has happening in your life,

Matt (36:17.626)
So I moved into my flat last Monday. So I've been here like almost two weeks now, which is wild. I've almost done all of the, well, I say all of the, there is so much admin to moving abroad. And like, there is like an ongoing joke about expats in Portugal, like with expats in Portugal, that like Portugal has the worst admin ever. And I think it's not actually that bad. It's just funny. Like we've had some funny experiences.

Wilhelm (36:19.704)
Mmm.

Wilhelm (36:31.671)
Yes.

Matt (36:45.914)
trying to get all of it sorted because you really do need to get it all sorted. For instance, buying is a very, there is sometimes like a very Southern European approach to things. And I know this. So my mum spent a lot of time in Malta and like I spent a lot of time there and like just, there are some similarities that I think Northern Europeans struggle with. Like for instance, I was trying to buy, I was trying to buy a car and you just have to smile about it and just be like that. This is how it is. It's fine.

Wilhelm (36:55.193)
Mm.

Wilhelm (37:00.249)
Mm.

Wilhelm (37:14.562)
Yeah, yeah,

Matt (37:15.355)
Nothing we can do tomorrow. We'll come back tomorrow. So I was trying to buy a car and I bought the car off a guy and all of this like did a lot of like clawding to work out like how the process to buy a car and Claude told me this thing that was like maybe true in 1990 but now is not necessarily needed. So I bought the car from a guy. He gave me all of his details and the car's details and the car's car and his car that has his name on it.

for the car and I need to go get a card with my name on it for the car and so I take the car you can't insure it yet it's pretty all of this stuff feels like mega gray area so I'm like driving it home on his insurance apparently that's fine drive it home because it's still his car technically and I leave it in my garage which is cool it's off the road whatever and then I'm going the next day I'm going to the office

Wilhelm (37:56.109)
Yeah.

Matt (38:11.578)
I can't pronounce the word in Portuguese for the office name. It's real tough, like automobile something. And I go to this office and I'm like, right, can I register this car, please? Filled out all the forms, like we'd filled out all the forms like with him. So I had his signature and all that stuff. And she's like, yeah, we do do this here, but like not today.

Wilhelm (38:25.013)
Nice, nice, nice, nice.

Wilhelm (38:32.888)
What was it like late in the day or something?

Matt (38:37.698)
Nah, it was half 11 in the morning. And I'm like, what do you mean not today? She's like, yeah, you're have to come back tomorrow. And you could tell like there was probably something, it wasn't her doing it. She was like on the desk before the person. She was like the prelim person. You had to get past the guardsman and she was the guardsman. And she looked to us and thought, I think these people don't, they can come back tomorrow.

Wilhelm (38:54.975)
yeah, Yeah, yeah. Right.

Matt (39:05.59)
And maybe there was a legit reason or maybe she just didn't want to deal with us. I wouldn't, like, either way, I didn't care. Like, we are kind of annoying people. don't really speak Portuguese. We know, like, enough words to, like, understand what she's saying if she speaks very, very slowly. But, like, we can't reply properly. We don't know the process. We need hand holding. We're basically toddlers, right? And so I wouldn't have, I wasn't offended at all.

Wilhelm (39:28.396)
Right, right, right.

Wilhelm (39:34.274)
So why, so you think it's because it's, yeah.

Matt (39:36.907)
No, but the best thing was Juliette just lost her shit. Juliette was like, what do you mean? What do you mean? Not tomorrow, not today. Like it says nine till four on the door. I was like, I'd already started walking out already. And she was like, Matt, it's because you struggled with your Portuguese. It's definitely your Portuguese's fault. Like we should go back in and ask. And I was like, okay, I'll go back in and ask. The answer is going to be the same, like 100%. And she was like, no, we'll go back in and ask. So went back in and asked. And I asked again in Portuguese.

Wilhelm (39:44.14)
Yeah.

Wilhelm (39:49.622)
Yeah.

Matt (40:07.297)
So tomorrow, right? Like, why can't we do it then? She's like, you know, not today, not today. And I'm like, I'm like, okay, cool, tomorrow. And she did this like, like Google translating in this moment to like work out how to say something more impressive. but she's like losing it, losing it. I was like, this is just so funny. Cause I went back to the next day and she was there and she remembered us and she was like, yeah, cool. We could deal with you today. Today will be fine.

Wilhelm (40:13.144)
I would get very frustrated by that. Very frustrated.

Wilhelm (40:26.613)
I would lose it too.

Wilhelm (40:33.08)
man.

Matt (40:34.625)
So she was like, what'd she said tomorrow? Like, it was so good.

Wilhelm (40:38.648)
Yeah, I, yeah, that's, yeah. Kudos on you for being chill.

Matt (40:41.816)
That's just one story. I've only been here a few weeks and I already have a multitude of those stories. I have eight documents now for my car insurance. I did car insurance and I have eight documents. Apparently there's an app that you can put them all in, whether that's your insurer's app or whether it's a government app. Answers may vary. I have neither of those apps. So at the moment I have eight paper documents. It's great.

Wilhelm (40:56.791)
Nice.

Wilhelm (41:10.402)
How many past heldonatos do you think you've had in the past months?

Matt (41:14.016)
dude, I had way more when I was like wandering around, like working out where to live because basically every new neighborhood I went to, had a pache d'ordinata and was like, and was like, which, which, which, which one tastes best, you know? And then I had one by the sea in Capricca and I was like, right, I'm here now. Although it's probably, they're not the best pache d'ordinata, they're pretty decent. The best ones are like, I reckon.

Wilhelm (41:21.376)
Mmm, of course.

Matt (41:38.506)
in either in the center of Lisbon they have like a lot of really nice ones or in Belem they have like the original ones like Peshtel de Belem which is a very fancy shop and it's really cool it's like a production line in there they just get you in they give you some of the best Peshtelmata you'll ever eat and then you leave immediately yeah

Wilhelm (41:44.664)
Mmm.

Wilhelm (41:55.832)
That is very, cool. Do you remember when we did this little mini hackathon afternoon thing at my place, like January last year? And I was trying to revive a project of mine, which was this like, yes. All right, it's almost ready for prime time actually. Let me send it to you. It's live, yeah.

Matt (42:03.509)
yeah, of course I do.

Matt (42:09.026)
friends!

Matt (42:14.71)
Is it live? Dude, can you make it like agent communication?

Wilhelm (42:19.755)
That's what it is now, yep.

Matt (42:22.775)
Is it like, like agent mail?

Wilhelm (42:28.289)
Basically, yeah. And it's great because it's finally a legit use case.

Kit Dissert Loading.

Matt (42:38.921)
it loaded. You know, on first load, had to reload my browser in a secure connection, just FYI. I don't know what's broken there, but like maybe it's my like corporate connection, but it freaked out. think sometimes if you, mm, shit, might be my fault.

Wilhelm (42:47.615)
What do mean in a secure connection?

Wilhelm (42:56.139)
Well, bro, it's on Cloudflare. So I think that's your problem. At least the DNS is on Cloudflare.

Matt (43:04.919)
Okay. Yeah, maybe. Yeah, yeah, I'm there. I'm there. I'm there. Is it, is it a static page? What is it? What is it?

Wilhelm (43:07.137)
But you see the logo and stuff, it's all there. Okay, nice. So for people who think it's friends.fy, no, it's not a static page actually.

Uh-huh, all will become apparent soon. but I've re-revived it for probably the third time in its history, like the other day. because I had for the first time a very concrete use case because the thinking was always like, wouldn't it be fun if you could send JSON payloads to your friends? Like, how would you do that today? But then it was always like, but okay, why would you need that? What's that for? All these pesky questions that come up when you're building a real product.

Matt (43:35.127)
Dude.

Matt (43:39.263)
Yeah, yeah, agreed.

Wilhelm (43:49.324)
But finally something happened, and forgive me if I've mentioned this to you, but I'm not sure I have, but my brother built this really cool vibe quoted thing where he sends me like an inspirational quote every morning, like at 6 a.m. And it's from his own personal like note collection, a quote collection. So he like has gathered up all these quotes that are like really cute and meaningful to him over like the past five years or something, and he saved them all in some app.

Matt (44:02.421)
Yeah?

Wilhelm (44:17.045)
And then he sends them to me every morning as like a little message for the day. And it's really good. And it shows me like, it shows me like when he saved it and like, so it's like a bit of an insight into his life. He lives in Berlin, I live here. We don't get to see each other that often. So it's a really cute thing. But, problem.

Matt (44:21.878)
That's so cute.

Matt (44:27.262)
So cute.

Matt (44:34.272)
I love it, I love it. Can my claw chat with your claw on this?

Wilhelm (44:38.697)
It'll become, yeah, it'll for sure. But the problem is, right, with this thing is sometimes I travel and this note, this inspirational quote in the morning, it arrives by email and supposed to arrive like at 6 a.m. But if you travel, it gets messed up. And he actually set this up while I was traveling. So it worked initially. And then suddenly these things started arriving at like 10, 11 a.m. local time, way too late in the day.

Matt (44:54.518)
Mmm.

Matt (45:06.902)
Is that why you have a time zone update?

Wilhelm (45:10.081)
correct, which I think is so far the actual use case that we use this for now. I think he's integrated it now. So what happens now, right, is my agent built mobile app keeps track of my time zone, updates my internal time zone store so that my agent, my clanker knows what time zone I'm in. And then if the time zones changed, it pings my brother's agent via friends.fyi by sending like a payload. You can, by the way, you can ping

other people's inboxes with just their GitHub username. And they don't even have needed to sign up. It stores the messages even before they sign up. So you can literally start sending your friend's agent's And then their agents can read their inbox and process theirs. And I think he actually integrated last night because the latest email arrived on time today. So hallelujah.

Matt (45:47.894)
This is sick. Okay, I've worked out why it feels slow though.

Matt (46:04.618)
That's insane. I love it. Dude, it's so good. Like it was such a good idea when you said, I worked out when it's It's HTMX.

Wilhelm (46:07.935)
Wait, why is it slow?

Wilhelm (46:15.659)
There is some HTMLX, yeah. Wait, are you logged in?

Matt (46:17.654)
Yeah, okay. No, I'm not logged in. still in the outside page, but you're loading HTML from unpackage.com on every load.

Wilhelm (46:34.977)
But it should be cached right after the first load.

Matt (46:39.414)
Maybe, but you're loading it from like an external URL.

Wilhelm (46:40.504)
wait, I think the issue is that it's...

Wait, maybe the issue is that it's loading all of Tailwind as well.

Matt (46:48.746)
Yeah, it's also loading all of Tailwind from Tailwind CDN. That's why it's slow.

Wilhelm (46:52.065)
That's probably a lot. my god, yeah, it is loading all of Tailwind.

Matt (46:57.45)
Yeah, which is not ideal.

Wilhelm (47:01.432)
I'll get the clanker to fix it.

Matt (47:03.072)
Get the client to just put it on Astro. You see, the new Astro just came out.

Wilhelm (47:08.223)
You've mentioned Astro before, but I like HTMX, man. This doesn't need a lot of front-end state.

Matt (47:14.685)
No, so Astro you can have fully static sides.

Wilhelm (47:17.803)
But it's not a static site. This is all server rendered. This is all server rendered Python.

Matt (47:22.142)
But like, why does it need to be... Like, the scrolling just froze on me like three times.

Wilhelm (47:28.833)
Well, I mean, we'll fix... It's weird because for me it's totally fine actually, but I mean, it's not great it's loading those things. We'll fix it. I can fix it right now if you want.

Matt (47:30.706)
Like, I'm trying to scroll and I can't.

Matt (47:39.988)
No, no, no, I think we should chat. This is sick though. Can you put a copy button in the sender message so that I can paste that into my own terminal?

Wilhelm (47:51.617)
Certainly. You can also just tell your agent to go to the site and then it'll figure it all out. But I think you have an inbox actually with messages in it.

Matt (47:57.256)
Okay.

I feel like I do because let me log in, let me log in. Dude, I love the idea. It's insanely cool. I just had to like critique your front end. Because I am obviously like the best front end human ever. I'm horrific. I'm actually horrific. Dude, yeah, I've got it. I've got no messages though. It's quite sad. It's very lonely in here. You should, you should say.

Wilhelm (48:08.126)
It's okay. You are, you are, are.

Wait, let me... Okay, wait, let me... Okay, that's quite sad. I actually told the clanker everyone should start with some messages. So...

Matt (48:23.22)
When it says no messages yet, can instead of no messages yet, can it just be like, it's feeling lonely? And then you can have something doing like this instead of like the message icon.

Matt (48:38.856)
Sorry, I'm just peppering you with feature requests.

Wilhelm (48:39.638)
I'm sending, no no no, I'm just sending you message.

Matt (48:49.109)
Do you me to send, okay, you need more copy buttons. I'm gonna send you my thingy. Wait, can I just do it in a terminal? Can I send myself a message? Okay, I sent myself a message, I think. Wait, do I not need to be, I don't need to be logged in to send a message?

Wilhelm (48:57.013)
Okay.

Refresh. Refresh. Yeah, yeah, it's just curl. And it's... Nice.

Wilhelm (49:13.28)
Correct. Correct. Just like email. You don't need someone's permission to send them an email. Same thing should apply to agents.

Matt (49:20.788)
Now I have two messages. Wait, do I, how do I know? How do I know? I obviously know which one's from you, but like, how can I see which one is from

Wilhelm (49:31.381)
This will improve a little bit, you can set a sender like header. also you can... Auth messages are a thing or will soon become a thing. So the message I sent you was actually authed. I think it just doesn't show you. So then you can, And then the next thing I'll do actually is I'll make this full end-to-end encryption by using your GitHub published keys so that you can fully encrypt a message with public key encryption.

Matt (49:45.278)
Was it signed? Was it signed by something?

Wilhelm (50:01.014)
on sending. And then the backend doesn't even know it. Yeah, it's a little bit finicky. I'm not sure most people will love that, but like it's cool. Yeah, and it does just work.

Matt (50:03.016)
That's sick. Yeah, that would be cool.

No, should definitely sign messages like the same like GitHub verified commits, right? You should sign the message. You should sign it with something.

Wilhelm (50:17.694)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it... Yeah. I agree.

Matt (50:22.322)
Yeah, 100%. Right, this is sick. Okay, so what's the plan?

Wilhelm (50:29.386)
Yeah, to be honest, I think what I'll just do is I'll make a nice skill for it and then just publish it on all the various skill exchanges and then see if people find it or like it. Maybe I'll write a little blog post about it as well.

Matt (50:48.443)
Yeah, you should. I think it's really cool. I thought it was cool when it was just humans. And this actually makes way more sense.

Wilhelm (50:57.406)
Yeah, it could probably even get better for agents as well, where it's like actually, like say I wanted to, just to give one other use case example, Scheduling is like a forever issue, right? Like say I want to get drinks with you next week, right? Like how do we figure that out? Do I send you a bunch of times, you reply with a bunch of times, or can my agent just reach out to your agent with a vague request like, Will wants to get drinks next week.

Matt (51:13.426)
Yep.

Wilhelm (51:24.564)
And then your agent can reply to that with as much detail or as little detail or fidelity as it wants, right? It doesn't need to send me your full Google Calendar schedule. It can just be like, Matt would be maybe open to drinks on a Wednesday evening. And then I can, my agent can reply with a specific thing and then your agent can confirm or whatever, but they can figure it out. The clankers can, can figure out the scheduling. And I think this is...

Matt (51:40.487)
Yeah, yeah.

Matt (51:48.915)
They can communicate. I have another feature request. When I go to friends.fy, now I'm logged in, I can't ever see the front page, the non logged in thing.

Wilhelm (51:53.494)
Please.

Wilhelm (51:59.351)
go to slash home, friends.fy slash home.

That needs to be hyperlinked, but yes, I had the same pain.

Matt (52:08.268)
Cool... Yes.

Matt (52:15.091)
That makes sense. Okay, cool. Well, I fucking love it. And we've chatted about stuff that people can't see for ages. So we probably should chat about more stuff. About other things. Wait, I just gotta double check my calendar. What's the, what time?

Wilhelm (52:21.949)
gotta try it out.

Wilhelm (52:29.502)
yeah, we have been going for a little while. Yeah, I had actually had a meeting but it was cancelled so happy days. Armin Ronnecher has a new podcast that I think everyone should subscribe to and listen to. Obviously he's part of that awesome trio of Mario, Zechner, the Pie Guy, Peter Steinberger, Open Claw Guy and then Armin is just writing about all this stuff. Yeah, I feel like...

Matt (52:30.13)
I don't know, do you have a few minutes? We're like kind of over time, but do have a few minutes?

Matt (52:38.818)
Okay.

Matt (52:53.554)
Is it a trio? Is it a glorious trio?

Wilhelm (52:57.088)
They're really good friends and chat all the time and yeah.

Matt (53:00.978)
So what's Armin going to make next?

Wilhelm (53:04.86)
He's working on something I actually don't really know. his podcast is called State of Agenda Coding. I saw it listening to the first episode. It's, I think it's good.

Matt (53:10.074)
Okay, specific. Okay, I will listen to it. That sounds awesome. That sounds awesome. Yeah. He has some good takes actually. I liked his most recent takes. Well, maybe not most recent, but I liked some of his takes around MCP. I thought they were pretty cool. He was a big fan of code mode. So I liked that. I liked that.

Wilhelm (53:30.454)
Yeah. I have been... Sorry, I feel like you were about to say something. I have like two or three more things I can share, but... Okay. I actually chatted a little bit with Armin at this Python AI conference, and it was interesting to hear where he's at because it sounded a little bit like...

Matt (53:40.368)
No, no. Go on. Hit me, hit me. Let's go.

Wilhelm (53:59.656)
Some of us are at the point where we have all of these cool personal clankers that are doing interesting stuff for us. But also, there is just a lot of slop code that now needs to somehow be dealt with. And we're facing these new challenges of, OK, if we're going all in on this AI coding stuff, how do we clean it up? How do we make it scale with more people on the same code base? That's not a challenge I've had, thankfully, which is, how do you

do this well with lots of people coding. But over the last night, actually, I've had codecs. Well, at first I had GVD 5.4, which seems like a great model and is a good reminder for me to replug the strong DM weather report, which I think is so cool. We talked about this before, right?

Matt (54:44.922)
You

Matt (54:49.55)
Mmm, yep.

Wilhelm (54:50.823)
Like they just list all the different models or the ones they use and what they use them for. And then there's an RSS feed you can subscribe to where they update, it just shows you how it changes, right? So they have just did one update yesterday where they said, okay, we're now using GPD 5.4 for planning and architecture critique.

but they're still using 5.3 codecs for all implementation work. And I've been feeling the churn a little bit in my Python agent clanker, personal clanker code base. There's just tons of code smells. There's some dead code, there's lots of weird guard clauses that don't make sense, there's a weird fallback. For example, I moved it all onto Postgres, but for some reason, some agent decided, just in case Postgres isn't available.

Let's fall back to SQLite. And I'm like, no, we don't, we don't want these random ass fallbacks that like, we'll just make it look like things are still working. But in reality, the system is behaving in like a very unexpected illegal state. so I've been having GBD 5.4 do a massive architecture review and critique and figure out like, now that the system has evolved naturally a bit, what are some of the abstractions that maybe have emerged that we can apply? And I think it did a really good job. And then

Matt (55:50.063)
Hahaha!

Wilhelm (56:16.831)
Codex 5.3 has been implementing it and I've been testing it as it's going and it seems much better and much cleaner. But it is still in progress, so I guess I should report back next time with how it all went. But the plan looked really good. I think GPT 5.4, damn, there's some good architecture thinking there.

Matt (56:33.925)
Yeah, I've been using 5.3 codecs a little bit just to review stuff. And I reckon 50-50, it gets good things to review. It makes a lot of sense. Doesn't catch everything though. We also have, we have Devon agent now on, we had it previously for a while and now we've got it back on the agents repo. And that's actually pretty good. That's pretty cool. I'm quite.

Wilhelm (56:39.253)
Mm-hmm.

Wilhelm (56:47.829)
nice.

Wilhelm (56:54.127)
cool.

Wilhelm (57:04.244)
You're pressed.

Matt (57:05.296)
Yeah, like every time, like it just, the reviews, feel like agents just got very good at code reviews recently. And yeah, I'm like, it's kind of funny thinking back to like shippy, the shippy era and stuff where I spent quite a lot of time trying to get agents good at code reviews and like, what does a code review need? What does it mean? Like all of this stuff. And now agents are so good at it. I don't even think about code review anymore. Just like, yeah.

Wilhelm (57:10.517)
Mmm.

Wilhelm (57:15.209)
Yeah, I agree.

Wilhelm (57:27.509)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (57:34.809)
Thank you.

Wilhelm (57:35.913)
They just find useful stuff and they fix it, you fix it.

Matt (57:38.606)
Yep.

Matt (57:42.263)
Yep, exactly. And it's just like, fuck, that's cool. Let's go.

Wilhelm (57:50.632)
So yeah, I'm still using code rabbit or just native codecs and I haven't haven't figured I haven't Tried the new Claude code code review thing yet

Matt (57:53.802)
Are you?

Matt (58:00.559)
That's expensive. I'm not sure I would pay $20 per code review.

Wilhelm (58:08.501)
Oh, wait, no, I pay like $20 per month for CodeRabbit.

Matt (58:11.919)
Yeah, but the new Claude Cotard one, whole point was it was like 15 or $20 or something crazy.

Wilhelm (58:14.805)
Hmm to be honest, I'm trying to force myself to not optimize costs and and Just lean in and obviously this sounds a bit like great Yeah, if you have the money to but like as I was building my Claude code powered agent Did I mention what it's called? It's called Chad It's called

Matt (58:27.567)
Just... lean in, lean in, lean in.

Matt (58:38.255)
Mine's called Sherlock, so I think this is like a different... I like Chad. I like Chad. Yeah, Chad's great.

Wilhelm (58:43.612)
nice, different approach.

This is the app icon for it. Can you see that?

Matt (58:51.151)
Wait, no.

Matt (58:54.842)
Wait, which one? nice, yeah, that's amazing.

Wilhelm (58:56.251)
one here Chad.

It's like the action, like the from the meme, chat from the meme. Where was I going with this? yeah. And I was just like, so it runs like an overnight job and the overnight job can get really expensive. Like I think it can cost like 40, $50 per night. And I was, and I saw that and I was like, let me refactor to make it use Haiku or whatever. And I'm like, no, no, no, this is the time to like experiment. Like if you're burning like a grand a month on like Claude tokens.

Matt (59:03.053)
Yay.

Matt (59:16.326)
wow.

Wilhelm (59:28.947)
That's probably a good thing. I mean, the strong DM people go much further, right? They're saying if you're not spending $1,000 per day per engineer on tokens, then you could build a better factory, which I think is a bit out there, but I think directionally it's probably good.

Matt (59:48.739)
Yeah, David Kramer messaged us asking like how many tokens we spent a day. And I think his number was in the millions that you should be spending a day. That felt like a lot. Yeah.

Wilhelm (59:59.093)
Mm.

down.

Yeah, mean, what's the price of a million tokens? Isn't it like one dollar or something?

Matt (01:00:11.663)
No, I think for Opus it's like 15, 20 dollars? Something like that. It used to be like 200, so I feel like we've it's got a lot better.

Wilhelm (01:00:17.03)
Okay. That feels reasonable. It's come down. Okay. I'll give you one more random thing here. Just to give a specific example of what my personal clanker has been up to. This requires a bit of explanation. So are you familiar with CliftonStrengths, Gallup's CliftonStrengths survey?

Matt (01:00:30.617)
Go on, me.

Matt (01:00:36.662)
Hmm?

Wilhelm (01:00:48.023)
The way I would describe this is it's kind of like something, it's an exercise you would do at like a corporate bonding event or something, because you fill out this massive, very well designed survey that has like, it takes like 30 minutes, 40 minutes maybe, and it asks you all these questions to figure out what are your top strengths. And then it gives you this like massive 25 page report that shows your top five, your top 10, and even I think your top 30 strengths.

Matt (01:00:57.333)
You

Wilhelm (01:01:16.852)
So it has like all these strengths and then it ranks them based on how they apply to you and it's a cool exercise because I like you genuinely learn things about yourself and it's very positively framed so it's very much like you should double down on your strengths and maybe watch out for your the pitfalls that come with your strengths, but you should focus on your strengths. Don't try and like improve your weaknesses or whatever like just focus on your strengths. So it's kind of like corporate Myers-Briggs, but with maybe a bit more like scientific backing.

Matt (01:01:38.945)
Yep.

Matt (01:01:45.676)
Yep.

Wilhelm (01:01:47.441)
And I always love doing this. I've done this with friends before. I did this like a couple years ago and I enjoy, yeah, and obviously it's a bit like, you know, it's nice reading stuff about yourself or whatever. I think that's the whole appeal of Myers-Briggs and like star signs and all this stuff as well. You feel seen, you feel seen by it. But Jess had never done it. So Jess did it a couple days ago and it was really cool to see her.

her strengths results. But then I was like, okay, wouldn't it be fun now if we had an agent, like, look at both of our top strengths, and then build us like a report of like, what are our compatibilities? Like, as a couple, what are our strengths? What do we do really well? What do things that we need to watch out for? And

Matt (01:02:18.369)
Yeah?

Wilhelm (01:02:45.17)
And then have my clanker generate us a podcast using notebook LM. and it all worked. So we fed these like two PDFs into the system. it generated us a 20 minute podcast using notebook LM and we listened to it like right before going to sleep, like the other day. And it was actually sick. Like it was really cool. It was actually really good. Yeah. Highly recommend. it, so I think it was, it was really quite funny.

Matt (01:02:53.463)
Yeah.

Matt (01:03:07.117)
Is it good?

Wilhelm (01:03:13.94)
A couple of things felt really accurate. A couple of things felt really interesting and worth thinking about. And I think maybe 80 % of it was really on the money. It was also a little bit sexist. not in major deep ways, but just in some of the examples it uses. But I think in Notebook LM, it's like, I don't know, have you tried using it?

Matt (01:03:26.093)
Hahaha

I can't in what way.

Wilhelm (01:03:42.77)
is like these two voices like speaking about it. And it's like very podcast, very podcasty. And some of the examples, yeah.

Matt (01:03:44.715)
Yeah, yeah, definitely. It kind of annoyed me. I know some people who really like it, but I kind of struggled.

Wilhelm (01:03:52.02)
Mm-hmm.

Wilhelm (01:03:56.572)
It's a cool system and I think they're focusing now not just on podcasts, but on generally like helping you learn stuff. So they let you generate like flashcards from the, and quizzes from like the content that you upload. So I think it's a really cool skill to have in your agent's toolbox. I, not for the relationship stuff, but for some like other stuff. Like I'm now using the, like I have like a study feature in my

Clankers mobile app, so it helps me do flashcards and quizzes for learning random aviation flying things, for example.

Matt (01:04:35.788)
Okay, how's that going by the way?

Wilhelm (01:04:38.388)
Dude, yeah, great. I did a flight on Friday. And I'm going, so I go Friday afternoons and the one last Friday was epic, man. It was so, so, so good. mean, California is just awesome. It's just so beautiful. I need to send you some pictures, but this was the first time, yeah, so this was the first time I flew to a different airport in the local area here.

Matt (01:04:45.9)
Hmm.

Matt (01:04:58.764)
That's so big.

Wilhelm (01:05:06.674)
and we flew to Half Moon Bay Airport and the approach in is just amazing. The runway is massive. Like it's a really, really fun approach. And like it's just no one else there. Like it was just so chill. Like it's not crowded. Yeah, it's great. When you come out, we need to go flying together.

Matt (01:05:29.566)
Yeah, I need to work that out actually. I'm definitely going to New York to go to MCP Dev Summit. And then I'm speaking at AI engineer now, which I wasn't meant to be, which is the week after. So it's like, it's kind of crazy, but we'll see in London. It's the AI engineer Europe, the big conference.

Wilhelm (01:05:41.364)
Ooh, nice.

Wilhelm (01:05:46.193)
Okay.

Wilhelm (01:05:49.768)
Where is AI engineer? Right.

Wilhelm (01:05:56.38)
Right.

Matt (01:05:57.575)
It's actually, it's a mad speakers list, including me, obviously, but like, like genuinely, genuinely insane speaker list. And I was like, holy shit. Cause I knew Sonil was speaking and so I thought I wouldn't get to speak. And then, and then I got a message being like, like, we'd like to invite you to speak. I'm like, fuck yes. It's gonna be so good. I got that and MCP dev summit all in one.

Wilhelm (01:06:02.639)
Absolutely.

Wilhelm (01:06:22.939)
Nice.

Wilhelm (01:06:27.527)
Yeah, that's a lot, So you probably might not make it out to San Francisco after...

Matt (01:06:31.743)
Well, I was, there's meant to be an AI demo days on the Tuesday, maybe. I don't know what day it is. So you might have to be, do you want to be me?

Wilhelm (01:06:36.307)
Mm.

Wilhelm (01:06:42.323)
That's a big responsibility. What do mean?

Matt (01:06:48.63)
Well, like, yeah, I'm pretty sure it's on the day, the night of the Tuesday or the Monday. Yeah, not Tuesday or the Wednesday. So what I was going to ask, like, yeah, I need to see if they can move it because if it was going to be like, I don't know, on the Monday, then I could come to SF for the weekend and then fly back to New York on a Tuesday.

Wilhelm (01:07:10.355)
Mmm.

Matt (01:07:13.897)
or fly back to London on the Tuesday and get home for the Wednesday because the Wednesday I have to be an engineer basically. So it's all like mega, mega tight.

Wilhelm (01:07:23.237)
I see, I see.

Matt (01:07:26.866)
We'll see, we'll see. need to like ask and sort some stuff out. But MC just booked some stuff. So she's like, she's doing an event and whether I consult myself out or not, like there will be an event.

Wilhelm (01:07:29.395)
Yeah.

Wilhelm (01:07:33.789)
All right.

Wilhelm (01:07:37.777)
I see, So this is AI Demodays in London. I thought you were talking about AI Demodays in San Francisco. right.

Matt (01:07:43.452)
No, NSF. No, she's booked one in NSF. Yeah,

Wilhelm (01:07:51.444)
Okay, nice. Yeah, that's... I actually would have loved to come to MCP Dev Summit. It's just slightly awkward timing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've been...

Matt (01:07:55.762)
Yeah, so.

Matt (01:08:02.186)
That's in New York though.

Matt (01:08:06.078)
But the week after is AI engineer in London, which is a mad expensive ticket. But if you did want to spend 1500 quid to come watch yours truly talk, you know, it's pretty good. It would be worth it. Yeah, it would be worth it. It would be worth it. Man, I'm so excited about that.

Wilhelm (01:08:10.599)
Damn.

Wilhelm (01:08:17.053)
that it would be worth it to me.

Wilhelm (01:08:24.657)
Yeah, keep me posted on your travel plans for this. Maybe we can figure something out.

Matt (01:08:27.688)
I will do. I've been awful with like replying and doing everything recently. Just a lot of admin moving country. I'm sure you had the same.

Wilhelm (01:08:36.335)
It's so much, dude, yeah, it's hard to comprehend. Yeah, I think, yeah, it's a humbling experience. And there's just so much ambiguity all the time. Like, what should you be doing? Did you forget something? Like, yeah.

Matt (01:08:40.234)
Yeah.

Matt (01:08:52.331)
Is something you're doing illegal? Is it legal? like, like not like, cause you're meaning to be, but like we walked, I walked into the citizen office to get my residency and the guy was like, you're illegal. And then after like 15 minutes, we had a conversation and he was like, yeah, so you're not illegal, but you have to do this thing and you have to go somewhere else. And I was like, are you sure? Really? Like, I think I can do it here. And then like 15 minutes later he's like, yeah, no.

Wilhelm (01:08:55.719)
Mm-hmm. Who knows?

Matt (01:09:21.642)
I think you can do it here. Yeah. No, no, no, with me, with me, but not now. Yeah, obviously not now. Don't be silly, not now. We've had this whole conversation about you doing it, but that doesn't mean you were doing it now. So I actually went in to go and do it, which was really, cool. I just did it just now. So I got my residency, which is sick, so they can't kick me out yet. Well, until it gets approved. It's quite exciting.

Wilhelm (01:09:23.773)
just tomorrow.

You

Wilhelm (01:09:35.667)
Don't be silly.

Wilhelm (01:09:42.588)
Nice, nice, nice.

Wilhelm (01:09:49.107)
Congrats, man. That's awesome. Lots happening, but yeah, I totally feel you on replying to people and all this stuff,

Matt (01:09:57.204)
Yeah, you need to be better. All this stuff is important. Keeping connections, having good stuff. Well, okay. Can we finish? Because I feel like I want finish, but I want to finish and I want to... There's so much has happened in with AI since we last spoke.

Wilhelm (01:10:06.717)
Yeah.

Wilhelm (01:10:15.493)
yeah, shit, I was gonna ask you what's been happening on Twitter because I don't- I'm out of the loop. I heard there was a thing about London Maxing.

Matt (01:10:21.78)
Well.

Yeah, so there was about two days of London maxing and I think there was a sunny day in London I think is what happened. And people were like, fuck yeah, London to the max man. And so I think that's what happened. But I think the really fun thing that happened on Twitter, I don't really wanna get mega into it, but I'm gonna tell you about it is that Steve Faulkner from Cloudflap rebuilt

Wilhelm (01:10:28.467)
Okay.

Wilhelm (01:10:36.776)
Yeah.

Matt (01:10:52.325)
the APIs from Next.js on top of VEET.

Wilhelm (01:10:55.427)
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know I did see this and the various terms we've come to describe such endeavors.

Matt (01:11:03.56)
Slop. So the internal chats are so funny about this. I might get fired for this, but I'm going to tell you some of the words. No, no, I'm going to share some of this. So Steve has getting himself a reputation. So he actually used to work at Vassel, which there's even more irony there.

Wilhelm (01:11:14.099)
Don't get fired, man. That's no, dude, don't, whatever, don't do it.

Wilhelm (01:11:27.269)
yeah.

Matt (01:11:33.168)
I think it was the CTO of SL, I always forget his name. Malta, yeah. But it was, he coined the term slop fork and slop fork, yeah, yeah. And now Steve is on an absolute mad one. So he slop forked next day ass into something. I don't even think it's a slop fork. It was, was kind of, it's actually just insanely good. That's the thing that's really weird about this thing is like vnext, vnext is.

Wilhelm (01:11:37.255)
Malte? Malte?

Wilhelm (01:11:42.855)
Slop fork. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matt (01:12:02.939)
is insanely good because it runs on top of Vite. And Vite is like the best JavaScript tool fucking ever. And they just announced the Vite people, Void Zero, they just announced a whole platform and an integrated tool chain, Vite Plus and Vite 8, where you'll be able to do that Vite format and it will use the formatter under the hood like Oxfmt. They have the whole tool chain like connected with one CLI.

Wilhelm (01:12:07.324)
Mm-hmm.

Mm. Mm-mm.

Wilhelm (01:12:20.898)
nice.

Matt (01:12:30.982)
And it's insane. They just announced that today. That was another thing on Twitter. But the thing about VNex is just fucking sick because it runs on V and the Next.js APIs are beautiful. I do think the Next.js team don't, well, they do get a lot of credit for it, but it is really good. And Versel particularly are very good at developer-focused APIs and making stuff look, making stuff very ergonomic and easy to use. mean, the AISDK is a perfect example of, it was stunning.

Wilhelm (01:12:31.43)
That's cool.

Wilhelm (01:12:35.793)
Mm-hmm.

Wilhelm (01:12:46.886)
Mm-hmm.

Matt (01:12:59.516)
when it was released, like each version has been adding more to it. It's very, very cool. And so I think that that isn't a mad thing about VNX. I think it's why it really riled up people the wrong way, because like it takes the best bits about Next.js and then adds it to the best thing in JavaScript. And yeah, there was some rough edges. There were some vulnerabilities that were present in Next.js that were reported to Vercell that they reported to us.

And there was a whole thing that happened there. Guillermo's was that he took to the vnext thing, I know if it was a response, but it was like a thing. said that, we just reported loads of vulnerabilities and exploits to the team and we got paid for them. And because that's Cloudflare's policy and like, where should we spend our Cloudflare dollars? And I thought that was quite cool. Cause like, it's great that we pay people for finding exploits in our code.

the fact they had it, like they know more about Next.js than anyone. So if they're going to provide us like things that are broken about our implementation, like that's awesome. It's really cool. And I thought I came across really well too. I just thought it was so good. It was just a really fun, maybe not fun for everyone, but definitely fun for me from the outside looking at it. Well, not really outside, but like I definitely have a horse of this fight and that's Steve, but.

Wilhelm (01:14:07.314)
Totally, totally,

Wilhelm (01:14:13.074)
That's awesome, yeah.

Wilhelm (01:14:23.974)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matt (01:14:25.989)
Like the fact that Steve made something so cool and it is just undeniably cool. It doesn't matter how it like represents itself. It's undeniably cool. That was a big thing he missed on Twitter.

Wilhelm (01:14:29.17)
Totally.

Wilhelm (01:14:32.678)
and

Yeah, it's a hundred percent no. And I think I got a little bit of this on Hacker News and I think actually the whole SlopFork thing came up at the conference as well because I don't know if you've come across Monty, which is something from the Pydantic team. Yeah.

Matt (01:14:45.991)
Mm.

Matt (01:14:50.757)
Yeah, pedantic. Yeah, Samuel demoed it at the last demo days.

Wilhelm (01:14:55.686)
nice, nice. Yeah, maybe you understand it better than me, but the way I understand, I understood it was that it's sort of like a, or he jokingly called it a slop fork of CPython. And then he quickly said, okay, actually it's not a fork at all. It's maybe it is slop, but it is very well kind of tested slop. But the idea is that it's sort of a subset of the core CPython implementation. So you can sandbox or run a Python code in like a very, very limited way because

just most of the interpreter isn't actually implemented. So like it can't write to, it can't do IO because there is no IO implemented. It can run the

Matt (01:15:26.737)
Yeah. It's...

It's actually mega smart. It's like you have less stuff. And it's the same idea behind Workaddy, like the Cloudflow runtime and why like dynamic workers are so good because dynamic workers don't have the whole of node. They just have the bits that you need, right? And because we control, when you control the runtime, you control all the IO and you can disallow stuff and way more like there's way more interpretability into the code than it would be if you were like looking from the outside in with like node.

Wilhelm (01:15:39.788)
Mm, right.

Wilhelm (01:15:47.067)
Yeah, yeah, right.

Matt (01:16:02.656)
and so I thought it was a stunning idea. I think it's really, really cool. And I think, yeah, for me, like seeing Monte, I was like, right. I just understand like dynamic workers are going to be huge because Monte is going to be huge in its own way. probably, and it just shows that people want this type of thing. And yeah, sure. You can deploy Monte on your VPS, but if you want to deploy stuff to the cloud, let's go.

Wilhelm (01:16:02.908)
Yep, yep, totally.

Wilhelm (01:16:13.606)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Wilhelm (01:16:27.204)
And also I think just like higher level, think the whole of Slope 4 clean room implementation debates and whatever are very interesting and should be had, but also like totally these agents, they like let us build much bigger, cool, new stuff and make it useful for people. So I think we should be doing this. We should build epic shit with agents.

Matt (01:16:33.222)
Hmm.

Matt (01:16:46.286)
Yeah, did you see, we should build that picture. Did you see Steve from TL Draw? Sorry, there's Steve's. Did you see him? So when this came out, there was a post from Steve Faulkner a few days before being like, I predict that open source packages will make their tests private. And he was predicting himself because he like,

Wilhelm (01:16:54.084)
No, no.

Wilhelm (01:17:05.564)
Hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I did see this,

Matt (01:17:14.402)
It's because he was using the next year's text test suite basically to write vnext like he was trying to make it past the test suite and that was a great like target for LMS to hit because they just have to make these tests pass. So and it's super well tested. Yeah. And the feedback loop was so great. So Steve Steve reads like the TL draw founder always on the money, always on the like on the gold.

Wilhelm (01:17:18.94)
Totally. Yep. Yep. Yep.

Wilhelm (01:17:26.36)
Mm-hmm, 100%. Makes so much sense. Feedback loop, yeah.

Matt (01:17:42.341)
tweeted out that he, after careful deliberation, he was making the TL draw test private. And it was eventually a joke, but it was picked, like caught up as a joke, but it was picked up. was entirely a joke. He was just taking the piss. And it got picked up by so many people and like reposted by so many people because he just fed into the narrative and he has like a successful open source project.

Wilhelm (01:17:52.292)
it was a joke! I didn't realize it was a joke!

Matt (01:18:11.073)
And so it fed into the narrative that, yeah, my God, tests are the real secret.

Wilhelm (01:18:11.439)
Yeah, yeah,

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I read on like Willison's blog that they were making it private. I'm not sure, yeah.

Matt (01:18:20.045)
Nah, they weren't. He was just rage baiting everyone. And okay, back to the slop fork thing. So Steve has just, if you go on Twitter, he's just slop forked something else.

Wilhelm (01:18:24.196)
Yeah.

You

Wilhelm (01:18:31.761)
Ha ha.

Matt (01:18:32.806)
This is so good. He slot forked the open code server so you can run an open code server in workers and DOs using SQLite for the state, no servers, no containers. And then he wrote, it barely works. And then there's so many comments underneath being like Steve slot fork Faulkner, X about to be like, he can't keep getting away with this. Steve has found his brand.

Wilhelm (01:18:47.473)
credible.

Nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Wilhelm (01:18:56.139)
Hahaha!

Hahaha

Matt (01:19:02.001)
What else did he write? Yeah, Slop Folk, like Steve Fogman's first name, Slop Folk. I thought it was good. Yeah. No, really, really funny. man, Steve's such a legend. yeah, I think VNext is pretty, it's a pivotable moment. Like we thought that there would be a moment where AI could fully write software. And I think we found it. And yeah, sure. There's some rough edges, but VNext, they've got some.

Wilhelm (01:19:06.817)
slop, yeah, wow. That's wild.

Matt (01:19:29.327)
They've got some people who are super excited about front-end frameworks building it now, like, and building it with AI, like, super fast.

Wilhelm (01:19:32.977)
Nice. yeah, yeah. Just helps to have some really good tests to start with. Maybe that's the next frontier.

Matt (01:19:39.779)
Yeah, yeah, I yeah, I mean, you can see why the labs pay like, serious money for data labeling, because that is it. That's what you need.

Wilhelm (01:19:46.245)
Yeah, yeah.

Wilhelm (01:19:52.739)
Any closing thoughts?

Matt (01:19:55.589)
Closing thoughts, slot forks, Portugal, no you can end on slot forks. Slot forks are so good, it's so good. Yeah, just like, Twitter's super weird now for me because I went from like 500 followers to 2K, to 5K, to 22K. And it's just a bit ridiculous because like my people like,

Wilhelm (01:19:59.602)
We can't end on that term.

Wilhelm (01:20:13.222)
Mm-hmm.

yeah, what are you at now?

Wilhelm (01:20:20.261)
Yeah, damn.

Matt (01:20:24.93)
Definitely listen to what I say more on Twitter and I do mostly take the piss and I'm gonna have to stop I think or like change how I write and like not just impulsively tweet stuff out that because people like do get offended when it's like an anon, know, like no one really cares, but people do get offended a little bit and also the secondary to that there's so many LLMs on Twitter. It's outrageous. It's not just like spams like, you know, we went through the phase of like

Wilhelm (01:20:40.689)
Mm.

Matt (01:20:56.307)
if you opened up like a popular tweet it would just be like visit this link to see my kinky pictures or something we had that phase do you not remember that phase that was a few that was like a couple of years ago and then we had the phase which was like which was like yes i completely agree this is the next generation of i don't know like like some insert llm drivel and now we have

Wilhelm (01:21:04.332)
yeah.

Wilhelm (01:21:09.777)
yeah.

Wilhelm (01:21:17.53)
Yeah.

Matt (01:21:21.793)
Now we have something that almost sounds legit and is sometimes like asking something as well. Like it's sometimes like, like, I feel like I have a problem with this and I've like been trying to test it. And then it's, it links to an issue that is just completely nonsensical and just so much time. And I saw AJ from Datadog posting that he like in earnest replied to one of these LLMs recently on Twitter before realizing it was an LLM. And I'm like,

Wilhelm (01:21:37.819)
Hmm. Hmm.

Matt (01:21:49.923)
Twitter's become, it's actually become quite heavy reading, because every time you're reading this, part of your brain is reading, and the other part of your brain is like, am I spotting LLM-isms? Is this an LLM, or is this real? And even if this isn't LLM, is this based on some system prompts that I actually still wanna know about?

Wilhelm (01:21:56.635)
Mm-hmm.

Wilhelm (01:22:00.274)
Mmm. Yeah, totally.

Wilhelm (01:22:05.905)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's a good closing thought. I think I kind of understand.

Matt (01:22:11.693)
Wild.

Matt (01:22:18.467)
Anyway, do you have anything to close on?

Wilhelm (01:22:21.391)
I'm just on your Twitter. Sometimes I browse. So the way I actually use Twitter now is occasionally I will go on xcancel.com and look at very specific usernames like Boris and Cat mostly.

Matt (01:22:33.603)
yeah, Boris has left.

Wilhelm (01:22:36.854)
sorry, Boris Cheney. But also Boris Tain.

Matt (01:22:40.547)
different Boris, okay. wait, you're just like stalking Boris and Kat?

Wilhelm (01:22:45.315)
Yeah, because that's how I want to know when they tweet things, basically.

Matt (01:22:49.955)
Yeah, Fer, Fer, Fer. Yeah, Boris, Boris, Boris Tane, Tane. I think his last name is actually Tane, but like Boris, Boris Tane, he left. Yeah, I'm actually so sad about that. Like we'll still see him around loads because he's building completely on Cloudflare, but I'm just like, yeah. I'm like, ah.

Wilhelm (01:22:57.349)
on it.

Wilhelm (01:23:09.809)
He's actually coming to my birthday party on Saturday.

Matt (01:23:14.28)
No. Say hi to your following, please.

Wilhelm (01:23:15.201)
So, Will Do, yeah, where are you, bro? Come over, come through. it was last month. I'll text you to not dox myself, you know? But the party is on Saturday, tomorrow.

Matt (01:23:21.303)
Which stage have I taken?

Matt (01:23:25.402)
yeah was, yeah it was!

Matt (01:23:30.286)
Wait, what's your mom's maiden name? The street that you grew up in? Your first cat's name? All of those, I want all of them. Thank you.

Wilhelm (01:23:35.313)
I'll text you that as well. I'll give you and maiden name for floor plan.

Wilhelm (01:23:49.347)
You... Alright, you're driving a hard bargain. Alright, let's wrap it. Peace, everyone.

Matt (01:23:52.898)
Yep. All right, bye. Big love, bye.

Wilhelm (01:23:58.076)
Big love.