You've Been a Bad Agent

Matt Carey (00:00.94)
You sound great.

Wilhelm Klopp (00:02.149)
I sound great. That's awesome. Yeah, actually, so Mack and I record a private podcast, mostly just chatting about triathlon stuff. And obviously we needed to get the best equipment. So I got this little like DJI mic mini thing, which is, it has like two microphones. You can clip them on. I think they're really popular with like influences. Like you see them sometimes on like reels, like holding these tiny microphones.

Matt Carey (00:19.008)
Okay.

Matt Carey (00:24.141)
Yeah.

Is this like the way of you saying you have an OnlyFans?

Wilhelm Klopp (00:30.515)
Not me, but, know. Who knows?

Matt Carey (00:34.042)
Okay, but Mac does maybe. He just gets his calves out for the crew. Yeah, amazing.

Wilhelm Klopp (00:40.403)
for the gram. That's right. How are you sir? I'm so glad we're doing this because I just want to chat to you.

Matt Carey (00:47.79)
Yeah, dude, this is gonna be so fun. I've been thinking about this for quite a while. Yeah, how's San Francisco?

Wilhelm Klopp (00:54.771)
Good. I'm actually kind of writing a little blog post with all the things I'm noticing that are like different or whatever. Which is interesting. Like the bunch of like surprising stuff that you wouldn't expect. But it's good. I mean it's just totally like the center of tech, right? You just keep bumping into people. It's kind of wild. It's also like really expensive. Or like the food is really expensive.

Matt Carey (01:18.368)
It's so much money isn't it? It's like 20 dollars for a sandwich.

Wilhelm Klopp (01:22.469)
Exactly. Yeah. So the lunch is just like, they're racking up the bills. Amazon comes more quickly though. That's good. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I think I ordered something at 1pm once and I arrived by like 4 or 5pm, which is wild. And then not just other hackathons every weekend, but there are like MCP hackathons every weekend.

Matt Carey (01:29.976)
Does it? Can you get same day delivery?

Matt Carey (01:38.306)
That's ridiculous. Like how is that even that quick?

Matt Carey (01:47.33)
Yeah you were saying that, that's like Yeah that's ridiculous, that's Aw man the MCB stuff, Go go go.

Wilhelm Klopp (01:51.397)
Yeah, one thing I'm struggling with, yeah, no, it's just like some of the British humor doesn't really fly. Like I'm definitely noticing some of the humor is quite different here. Like people don't appreciate the sarcasm as much. Or sometimes I think in the WeWork I said something and people found it hilarious, but I had no idea why it was funny. Like I didn't think it was funny at all. So I don't know, there's just something I'm still figuring out about the humor here. and then also last thing, scented trash bags are a game changer. Have you ever used scented trash bags?

Matt Carey (02:19.221)
Hmm... Wait... No, what are they?

Wilhelm Klopp (02:21.488)
So they just smell really nice. So like your rubbish bags, they smell great. Which is a beautiful invention.

Matt Carey (02:24.881)
they actually just smell nice. Okay, okay, okay, okay.

Matt Carey (02:32.722)
okay that sounds, that sounds nuts. mate the MCP stuff, don't you think, okay so have you been going to a lot, did you go to some of the Cloudflurry stuff? I was actually like interested.

Wilhelm Klopp (02:45.49)
Like the demo, like the online demo day thing they had. think that was only online, more like maybe some invited guests or something. But no, I haven't been to much MCP Cloudflare stuff in person. I went to an MCP hackathon and then also there was a conference next week, like an MCP conference that actually cost like money.

Matt Carey (02:49.474)
Yeah. was that only online or was it in person?

Matt Carey (02:56.908)
okay.

Matt Carey (03:07.978)
yeah, I that one as well. That actually looks awesome. my God, what is it called?

Wilhelm Klopp (03:13.81)
What is it called? I signed up with... You know how in Luma it's like annoying because sometimes they want you to put your work email but then it links a different Luma account?

Matt Carey (03:26.172)
I only have one Luma account. I'm kind of lucky. I'm only a work email Luma account type of person. Yeah, I'm not using that. Okay, no, I think I saw some really cool people were going. I made some MCP stuff yesterday. Is David coming? He's coming over.

Wilhelm Klopp (03:31.637)
I see. It's called the MCP Developer Summit.

Wilhelm Klopp (03:41.53)
Yeah, David is coming for this.

Yes, yeah. He's gonna speak at this thing. Okay, I feel like there's so much shit we could talk about. Like, what do you want to talk about? Do you want to talk about MCP stuff? I made a list of things as well.

Matt Carey (03:47.02)
I love that man.

Matt Carey (03:53.506)
Well first I want to talk about how my watch is dead. I'm really sad. Dude I'm actually so sad. I've had this since 2016. This like Garmin watch. And yeah I got it when I joined the British Sailing team. It was the first bit of squad discount I ever bought. And yesterday I was going for a swim and it started making lots of funny noises and then it started beeping very intensively.

Wilhelm Klopp (03:57.331)
Wilhelm Klopp (04:03.591)
Mm-hmm.

Wilhelm Klopp (04:12.934)
Hmm.

Matt Carey (04:20.11)
And then all of the, then it had like these like colored boxes that started appearing on the screen. Um, and I was like, now at this point it's broken. And then it started showing like some, you know, when Linux crash boots and it just shows a terminal, like my watch did that.

Wilhelm Klopp (04:20.309)
Wilhelm Klopp (04:34.437)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's wild. I didn't even know this was a... I feel like all the most devices I've ever had died. They died because, like, you know, they just ran out of battery, then they would not charge again or not turn on again or something like that. This sounds like a great...

Matt Carey (04:48.814)
Yeah, this was like self-destruction. And then I was like, oh, maybe the battery's just flat or whatever. So I plugged it in earlier today and it got really hot and was like, holy shit, something is going to explode. So I think something has fried and then it got put into like a crazy need to test myself mode and then that something fried again. So I don't know. Anyway, it's gone to a bad place.

Wilhelm Klopp (05:09.808)
That sucks. Maybe I didn't like your swimming technique.

Matt Carey (05:13.75)
Yeah, well, I also don't tell Garmin, but I also went down a little bit underwater with it and you're really not meant to. Yeah, well, they're rated. They're rated to go deep. like, I think I went I was catching scallops in the harbor and I went like 10 meters or maybe like eight meters. And

Wilhelm Klopp (05:21.164)
really?

Mm-hmm.

Wilhelm Klopp (05:31.91)
Whoa, is this just the thing you do on the weekends?

Matt Carey (05:37.004)
Well, I'm in Dorset at the moment, so it's the thing I do in the morning or in the evening. Yeah.

Wilhelm Klopp (05:39.954)
What? So you just catch your food for the day. This is how we're meant to live.

Matt Carey (05:45.066)
No, not for the day. Dude, I catch like two little scallops, which I put on top of pasta. It's not exactly...

main substance of the day but it is very good fun you just swim around for like you go out on a little paddleboard or like a windsurfing board that's down by the back of the trailers i don't know who's windsurfing board it is it's like a really old one and i just like paddle out for 20 minutes tie up to a boy and then just dive down and yeah it's really fun my mum my mum came out with me she was on a paddleboard it was nice i had like i had like coach boat support you know um anyway uh i derailed the conversation

Wilhelm Klopp (05:56.284)
That's awesome.

Wilhelm Klopp (06:12.432)
That's awesome. Wait.

no way.

Wilhelm Klopp (06:19.794)
Wait, how come you endorse it?

Matt Carey (06:23.286)
I'm just here for the week. My parents have a house here. my girlfriend's climbing, she gets climbing mountains this week. She's like, yeah, she's off. She's climbing some, she does live the wildest life. Yeah. She had some like alpaca award ceremony on Regent Street last week. And then this week she's like climbing mountains in Switzerland.

Wilhelm Klopp (06:28.033)
sick.

Wilhelm Klopp (06:35.804)
Juliet lives the wildest life. I want her life.

Wilhelm Klopp (06:44.914)
I hope she's in Switzerland, not in Dorset. I guess Dorset doesn't have many mountains.

Matt Carey (06:52.238)
Yeah, no no, it doesn't have any mountains, she's in Switzerland and Italy and they're climbing Mont Blanc and a bunch of other 4000m stuff so... Yeah, and it's still very snowy up there. Anyway, that was like preview of what's going on in my life.

Wilhelm Klopp (07:03.27)
Amazing, that's awesome. Well, good stuff. Oh.

Yeah, and for everyone who doesn't know, this watch probably was in Tokyo with you, right? At the Olympics.

Matt Carey (07:16.654)
Not at the Olympics, but like before the Olympics. Yeah, pre-Olympics. So we did an event four years before the Olympics in the same venue. And yeah, this watch was with me there. It got very hot there and it didn't blow up. Yeah, I don't know. Sad times. Anyway.

Wilhelm Klopp (07:20.077)
Olympics.

Wilhelm Klopp (07:34.192)
because for everyone who doesn't know, Matt had a previous career as a professional kite surfer.

Matt Carey (07:39.724)
Are we talking to an audience now? Is that what's going on? Yeah. So, okay. So let's preface this. It's me and Will are starting a podcast. Me and Will are starting a podcast. We have no idea what it's going to be about. We don't know what we're going to say. And we've spent the last 10 minutes talking about Garmin watches. This is on trend. It's on brand, I think.

Wilhelm Klopp (07:41.266)
We're recording this.

Wilhelm Klopp (08:04.348)
I think that's right. That's what the people want. Actually, you know, this could be a good thing to talk about for us. Like what we actually, what we want to do with this podcast. Because I think we have some different ideas of how this could work. But like what's your, why do you want to do a podcast with me?

Matt Carey (08:20.578)
do because you're hysterical. And I miss you dude. I miss you man. Like since you moved to San Francisco we barely chat. Well we do chat a little bit and I feel like our whole last conversation should have been a podcast because we covered like rapid fire everything that happened in AI for the past month which was a lot of stuff. And then...

Wilhelm Klopp (08:22.66)
I'm aww. You know, that's the weight of my heart. That's the weight of my heart. I miss you too.

Wilhelm Klopp (08:40.934)
We did.

Yeah, did I tell you in that chat that my new policy is that AI news I will consume only on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Saturdays?

Matt Carey (08:56.29)
What is that why this podcast is on a Wednesday?

Wilhelm Klopp (08:58.578)
I actually haven't looked at the news yet. I'm still on Monday. No, it's just too much, man. You just, I think you just have to, you just have to focus on what you believe in and not listen to all the news. You know?

Matt Carey (09:11.96)
There's a lot of news. Ooh, I've got some news for you actually. Granola Ray series B. I just saw it. Yeah.

Wilhelm Klopp (09:18.206)
no way. congrats to the team. We actually kind of met at the dinner they hosted, so thanks to them.

Matt Carey (09:24.27)
We did, we did, we did. They are, they, yeah. Dude, that dinner was so cool. I met Yu, which was sick. I met Nico from Vercel, which was also cool. I met Sunil from 3.1 from CloudFlare. And there was a bunch of other people also. Like, it was just like so, like, I don't know. Sam and Chris know the coolest people, and Vaz as well. It was really nice. Yeah.

Wilhelm Klopp (09:32.454)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Wilhelm Klopp (09:39.398)
from Councilor.

Wilhelm Klopp (09:49.115)
It's true, yeah. That was great. That was really, really great. I remember asking, my god, yeah, Henry. Yeah, we went to uni together. It's wild.

Matt Carey (09:52.332)
And Henry as well, Henry Moulton was there as well. Yeah. Yeah. And you just come from demo days the week before. I was such an imposter. Like everyone there was like, had like made like awesome companies or was about to make awesome companies. And I was like, yeah, so I run a little event sometimes. Yeah.

Wilhelm Klopp (10:03.268)
Hmm.

Wilhelm Klopp (10:08.646)
Hahaha.

Wilhelm Klopp (10:12.858)
It was very founder heavy. But you brought all the swag.

Matt Carey (10:18.392)
I brought the swag. Maybe the swagger. Maybe not the swag. No, but it was fun. No, they did what? I think 46 million from Lightspeed, Nat Freidman? I don't know how you say his name. that his name? Nat Freidman.

Wilhelm Klopp (10:20.86)
exactly the swagger.

Hahaha

Wilhelm Klopp (10:32.592)
Nat Friedman, no way, yeah, he was my boss for a while, my boss's boss's boss at GitHub.

Matt Carey (10:38.191)
GitHub, yeah. yeah, I always forget you work at GitHub.

Wilhelm Klopp (10:40.154)
I think his fund is actually very legit. think if I were to ever raise money, I would want to raise from nfdg.com.

Matt Carey (10:48.908)
Yeah. Wait, is his fund, his fund isn't the AI grant or it is the AI grant?

Wilhelm Klopp (10:56.048)
Yeah, it's a bit confusing. think the AI ground stuff was something he was also involved with, but that was... wait, but that is a different thing. Yes, yes, yes.

Matt Carey (11:02.145)
Yeah, because Granola also went through the AI grant. I did know that. They did that. I'm pretty sure they did that previously. I mean, don't quote me on that, but I'm pretty sure they did that previously. No, it's a really cool product and they're based in London. I don't know. I was in their office. They're hosting some really good events at the moment. You're missing out actually. They have this really cool new office on Old Street. Sam was telling us, co-founder, one of the co-founders.

Wilhelm Klopp (11:06.756)
interesting.

Wilhelm Klopp (11:16.338)
Yeah.

Wilhelm Klopp (11:21.372)
Dude.

Matt Carey (11:29.55)
to kit it out with plants, they were getting like crazy quotes from like office plant companies. And so he just, so he was just like, sack this off, hired a van and drove it to Columbia road at 5am and just Columbia road to the flower market and just spent five grand on flowers and like plants and stuff. And now they have, now they spend the money they were going to spend, they spend it on a gardener, an inside gardener for all of their plants. But they're in very good nick. They look good. It looks good. It looks good.

Wilhelm Klopp (11:44.335)
Amazing.

Wilhelm Klopp (11:55.475)
Incredible. That's awesome. And they do like their plants. I remember this. They would hunt off plants, That's exciting. Okay, cool. So I think that's some good AI news. That's the kind of level of fidelity for AI news that I like. know, one bit of news in the morning and then nothing else as opposed to like...

Matt Carey (12:01.474)
Yeah, no. Yeah, no, it's cool.

Matt Carey (12:16.459)
Yeah.

Wilhelm Klopp (12:18.05)
Everything is changing. So this is this is actually what you know, if if we are making a podcast and it's kind of broadly about AI I am somewhat keen for us not to contribute to the like hype of like, my god, everything is changing You thought what was true yesterday was true. Well, what a sucker. It's all different today

Matt Carey (12:36.302)
10 things, 10 things you need to know about Gemini 2.5 Pro Preview Turbo 24-25 that is actually 26-27.

Wilhelm Klopp (12:43.246)
Exactly. Like I would love.

Wilhelm Klopp (12:48.977)
I would love to chat with you about all the stuff I tried with AI that didn't work. Because we're both building stuff all the time, right? And it's like, everyone's always telling these stories about, oh, here's how I built my agent. But it's interesting to talk about the stuff that we tried that didn't work and share a bit more of a genuine thing. But I know you're keen to have some guests on the pod as well and all of this.

Matt Carey (12:54.386)
Hmm, yeah.

Matt Carey (13:11.534)
Yeah, I want to get some guests. So like with demo days, I run this event series called AI demo days. get a bunch of startup people in to demo their stuff. He demoed for Zed. It was really cool. Yeah, we had like David from Anthropic. He demoed. We had open AI demo in one of the last ones we had in San Francisco. I just think it'd be really fun to leverage some of those guests and even to get some.

Wilhelm Klopp (13:24.274)
Mmm, that's fun.

Wilhelm Klopp (13:36.338)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Carey (13:39.19)
like people higher up in their organizations to demo, to speak. It's like a different format that's a little bit complimentary, but a different thing and more casual because that demo days has become very big now. It was like a very little thing and now it's like a big thing and now we end up using it for a bunch of branding and it's used by my company and things like that.

Wilhelm Klopp (14:00.858)
It's huge and congrats on the success as well. It's such a great format. I honestly think it's one of the best meetups or consistently one of the best meetups I've ever been to and I've been to a lot of meetups. So nice work.

Matt Carey (14:12.27)
Well, I think that's too kind. I think there are loads of cool meetups. There's like, Tinkerer's is really cool. And the fact that that's global as well. I mean, it's a completely different league to what we're doing. We're just having fun with it. But there is some really cool stuff. like AI engineer as well. Another global meetup. It's kind of wild.

Wilhelm Klopp (14:29.874)
yeah, AI engineer. They're hosting like a giant conference in SF, I think, in June.

Matt Carey (14:35.116)
Yeah, I had so much FOMO about last year. I think it looked really fun. Jason Liu did a very cool talk, the instructor guy. But they put them all on YouTube. It's like the Stanford system where they have an awesome talk and then a couple of minutes later it's all on YouTube but you can watch them all to your heart's content.

Wilhelm Klopp (14:40.818)
interesting.

Wilhelm Klopp (14:48.678)
Yeah, that's cool.

Wilhelm Klopp (14:55.25)
Yeah, that's awesome. That's great. Yeah, the guest thing is super interesting. think having, I can give you a look at all the best podcasts, or all the biggest podcasts. They all are guest-based, Like, I don't know, the Tim Ferriss one, Joe Rogan, the diary of a CEO.

Matt Carey (14:57.336)
They're longer format as well.

Matt Carey (15:09.326)
Hmm.

Wilhelm Klopp (15:15.706)
all the biggest, I guess the all in podcast, although obviously it's gone down the drain massively, is mostly not guest-based. And I like that about it. But I think like, like, I think that having guests is a great way to grow a podcast, right? Because the guest comes on, the guest shares it with their audience, like this sort of stuff. Lex Friedman is another example. Dwarf Cash is another example, I guess, of like great guest-based podcasts.

Matt Carey (15:32.973)
Yeah.

Matt Carey (15:40.846)
Yeah, Dwarkash mixes it up though a little bit. He also acts as more of a pundit as well sometimes, where he talks about things that are happening more than just having guests on. He did an episode that I really liked with two guys from Anthropic who just seemed to be friends of his. That was a really cool episode because they went through some news and they had... It wasn't just like...

Wilhelm Klopp (16:00.987)
Mmm.

Matt Carey (16:05.484)
tell me your guests deep inner thoughts about the future of AGI and how we're all going to be out of work.

Wilhelm Klopp (16:08.75)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay, nice. I wonder if we should make like a podcast mood board or something for what we want to be doing. Because I think like Dworkash, like that's totally the vibe to go for. Like if there are guests, like keep it like casual and invite like friends. And like Lex Friedman is like the anti-goal where you ask like, you invite like the most famous people and ask them these softball questions like, so AI.

So Vim or Emacs, you know, it's like totally, totally boring and like not interesting to anyone. Or not genuine.

Matt Carey (16:42.742)
Yeah, and then have it five hours long. No, the other ones I really like are... I shared this one to you, is it called How About Tomorrow by Dax? Yeah, Dax and Adam. They're so cool.

Wilhelm Klopp (16:50.108)
Dude, I love this podcast. Yeah, it's so good. I literally, it's so good. I was doing a ton of furniture assembly this weekend. Like, my God, do know how long it takes to assemble a nightstand? It takes hours because you have to do all the drawers, right? It's like the hardest bit of furniture to assemble. Well, at least that I've done. Because it's like, it's the shell.

Matt Carey (16:59.107)
Mm.

Matt Carey (17:12.62)
This is like Ikea, right? You're not like building the nightstand.

Wilhelm Klopp (17:15.674)
Yeah, I'm not like, carpeting it from scratch. I'm not like, getting a little trunk tree delivered into my flat and then, no, but yeah, it's like an Ikea thing. But yeah, it takes forever. It's very satisfying though. anyway, lots of furniture assembly time. And I don't think I've ever done this with a podcast. I listened to one episode and then I liked it so much. I listened to like three more episodes. So I spent like four hours just listening to their podcasts, like nonstop. Really cool.

Matt Carey (17:18.542)
You

Matt Carey (17:39.822)
They're really cool. They're really cool. And I liked some of the stuff they're building as well. I think it's much more interesting if you... Because I'm listening to it as like almost like a back room discussion on what they're building. they're building, they were building open code. I think it's still called open code, but the, the Claude code thing, like replacement. Obviously DAX has got SST. They're both involved in terminal, which is hysterical. It's a coffee company over the terminal.

Wilhelm Klopp (17:51.557)
Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Wilhelm Klopp (17:58.567)
Yep, yep, yep.

Yup.

Wilhelm Klopp (18:07.28)
Yeah, actually, can you explain this to me because I'm new to this.

Matt Carey (18:11.362)
Yeah, well the terminal thing I don't really understand either and I can't participate because it doesn't come to Europe or the UK. It's only the US. So you're gonna have to actually explain to me in a couple of weeks when you've worked it out. But from what I understand is you can order coffee over SSH. Which is a ffff... Yeah. Yeah, something like that. But what I really liked was they used the...

Wilhelm Klopp (18:23.846)
Ha ha ha!

Wilhelm Klopp (18:28.504)
I see. So terminal.shop.

Matt Carey (18:37.824)
He used all his UI components, the same ones as SST. So it kind of feels like SST. And then someone, I don't know who it was, went a bit crazy with some of the pages. So the page for the Cronjob page, I don't know if it's still the same, but it was this old school computer, like 70s Mac. And I really liked the branding. I've been getting really into branding. Not like...

Wilhelm Klopp (18:56.22)
Yeah, I'm looking at it right now.

Matt Carey (19:03.968)
into it but appreciative I think is the word the designer yes wow you can yeah that thing you can share stuff

Wilhelm Klopp (19:08.188)
this thing.

I guess it's recording video as well, right? this, Riverside.

Matt Carey (19:14.146)
Yeah.

Yeah, that's cool. the other one I was looking at is...

Wilhelm Klopp (19:18.682)
Okay, so terminal.shop is a coffee subscription that you have to order via SSH.

Matt Carey (19:25.878)
Yeah, I don't think it's just a subscription. I think this is the cron bit of it. But the... Yeah. I think it has, if you click on API, maybe you have some... Yeah, here you go. This is a terminal, right?

Wilhelm Klopp (19:32.528)
right.

Wilhelm Klopp (19:38.81)
Okay, this is the terminal. So I can put in my email address.

Matt Carey (19:41.602)
Well, I think if you copy ssh terminal.sharp into your terminal, you could do it.

Wilhelm Klopp (19:46.288)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I have tried this actually, okay. And then it just asks you to subscribe though to the coffee subscription.

Matt Carey (19:58.531)
I don't know. No, I think there's more stuff. I think you can actually just buy individual coffee. I don't know. Anyway, I can't do it because it's not in the UK. So Dax, please.

Wilhelm Klopp (20:04.946)
I mean it's obviously hilarious, I just wonder if there's more into it.

Matt Carey (20:10.668)
I don't think there's much more to it. They recorded a rap video on a boat in Miami. It's just a bit silly. I don't think they've released the video, but they released a teaser and the teaser was hysterical already. Anyway, I think this is enough chat about that because we're going to inflate his ego too much. Have you seen RedwoodJS? What, RedwoodSDK?

Wilhelm Klopp (20:15.634)
Oh yeah, I tried to find this actually. I couldn't find the video. How? Oh, I see, I see.

Okay, okay, okay.

Wilhelm Klopp (20:29.018)
were, yeah, exciting.

Wilhelm Klopp (20:36.606)
I know it only as the Rails for JavaScript attempt. Because one of the GitHub co-founders was involved or is involved with this, right? Tom Presson Warner. But I don't know if it's changed in the last three years.

Matt Carey (20:53.326)
Oh, Matt, I think he's an investor in Stackworn. Like a seed investor. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know, I can't remember. I really should know that. No, Redwood SDK, not Redwood JS, I think Redwood SDK. It's like, I don't know if they've, I'm assuming they pivoted or they changed the library or they changed an idea or, but it seems to be something to do with running.

Wilhelm Klopp (20:59.805)
is it?

Wilhelm Klopp (21:05.926)
So wait, what is it now? Wait.

Matt Carey (21:22.668)
like React and like modern React, like with server components and stuff, which we can debate whether that's a good idea or not, but running like React, but using Cloudflare primitives, like directly on Cloudflare.

Wilhelm Klopp (21:34.535)
cool. Cloudflap primitives are sick.

Matt Carey (21:36.062)
and making use of durable objects. It's very hard to know how to use them if you don't have extensive React experience and extensive back-end distributed event-driven architecture experience. It all gets quite confusing.

Wilhelm Klopp (21:49.426)
Or if you have Sunil on speed dial, like you seem to make use of frequently.

Matt Carey (21:56.688)
dude, I end up calling him up way too much. We're gonna get him on here by the way, we have to. He was keen, he was like, he was like, I'm so down to do at least one episode. And I was like, that's good enough, that's good enough for me. That's good enough for me.

Wilhelm Klopp (22:00.91)
Nice.

Wilhelm Klopp (22:05.458)
Let's do it. That's super exciting. Okay, interesting. So I love Cloudflare, not just because I have all of my savings in Cloudflare stock, which by the way, it was a great week for that. It's up like, it's up 22 % in the past five days. So.

Matt Carey (22:21.518)
Yeah, what we are now, like 140 something?

let's go, let's go.

Wilhelm Klopp (22:29.774)
I think my savings are looking higher than they've ever looked. So shout out to CloudFlare. Please buy more stock. It's good for me. Huge fan of CloudFlare primitives. Also, I think it's actually just the smoothest, best, most active deployment experience at the moment. Brief side track on this. But I've been building a lot more stuff the past few weeks. And I built one thing in Python because I wanted to build something with Fast API for the first time. And I built this little MCP tracker. It looks at like.

most popular MCP servers, like standard IO MCP servers. And I built it in Python and then I went to deploy it and I was trying to figure out what are like the best deployment options. And fly.io came up and I was like, can you check that out? But I had tons of issues with it. Like just like really like the dashboard wasn't loading. The servers were getting shut down automatically. Like there's a bunch of stuff that just wasn't working. Like they don't have like a good cron thing built in.

Matt Carey (23:12.759)
Hmm.

Matt Carey (23:19.405)
Yeah.

Wilhelm Klopp (23:28.592)
like a good scheduled thing. It's just like, just, it's just, just use cron in like the box or whatever. And it's like, they even built like a, anyway, so like, they don't have like a native platform cron. So I just had tons of issues. Then just ended up going back to Heroku, which was just really familiar and comfortable and like works. And that's where it runs now. Bit of a bummer, but then obviously you do pay for Heroku, like $8 a month or whatever. Then you pay, I pay separately for Postgres, which is on Crunchy.

Matt Carey (23:29.163)
that's annoying.

Matt Carey (23:48.078)
Mmm.

Wilhelm Klopp (23:57.843)
crunchy data, crunchy, crunchy bridge, which is another $8 a month. Whereas if I build this all in JavaScript with like Cloudflare primitives, it would cost nothing. And the deployment experience is pretty incredible. The only downside is you can't really use Python. So anyway, long story short, like.

Matt Carey (24:04.814)
Mmm. Mmm.

Matt Carey (24:13.41)
You can, no dude, you can use Python. It's the jankiest thing ever though, have you seen it? It's like import durable objects.python or something and then you can like extend the class that's the CloudFlare, I don't know, anyway, it looked very confusing but I saw Matt Silverlock shared something and it was cool. No, I wanna echo the CloudFlare thing though. I haven't been mean to it for ages so you know GitHub Actions. Normally, I don't wanna deploy something on a GitHub Action.

Wilhelm Klopp (24:16.241)
Well.

Wilhelm Klopp (24:38.652)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Carey (24:42.062)
Normally when I deploy something, use a GitHub Action and I just have my deploy script. Anyway, stick it in a GitHub Action, all good, all done, And then every time I speak to a Cloudflip person, they're like, that's silly. We have that out of the box. And I'm like, what do you mean? And they're like, just press this button in the dashboard and it connects to your repo. And you end up with Vercell style deployment on demand. And I just never been bothered to do it, but I finally did it. And it's so easy. It's ridiculous.

Wilhelm Klopp (25:03.75)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Matt Carey (25:11.436)
And then you, and I, yeah, it's faster to set up a hundred percent. And if you ever have a debugging, like it's, never have to debug it. Like it does just work out of the box. And that is, I think that's view about some of the Cloudflare stuff is like when you use it as is, as they intended it to be used. Amazing. If you go slightly off piste, you are, you are in all manner of pain and you have to like know how something works under the hood. And because it's like a, it's a strange programming paradigm.

Wilhelm Klopp (25:11.536)
Yeah, it's It's probably faster than GitHub Actions too, right?

Wilhelm Klopp (25:21.297)
Right.

Wilhelm Klopp (25:35.985)
Riot.

Wilhelm Klopp (25:41.574)
Yeah, totally.

Matt Carey (25:41.698)
to most people or then you end up getting in the weeds. But it's cool. But your Python thing, if you ever wanted to make it more of a serverless thing, you should run that on modal. I really like the modal Python. Like their deployment system, super easy as well. Like modal deploy and it's up in like normally a second and it's just ready, done.

Wilhelm Klopp (25:52.242)
Oh, interesting. I never even thought about that. I mean, be honest.

Wilhelm Klopp (26:05.254)
That is great. Yeah, okay. I really should have considered modal. In my mind, they kind of shifted to becoming more like a GPU workload kind of thing. But yeah, I think that could have worked.

Matt Carey (26:14.178)
They are GPU workload, but that does just mean they can launch containers very, very fast. And if you don't want GPUs, they launch them a lot quicker than if you do want GPUs. So if you want GPUs, it ends up taking like, it can take a few seconds to get a GPU. But if you don't want a GPU, like the cold start is normally less than a second. And then the container just stays open for the lifetime and you can have it time out after like quite a long time.

Wilhelm Klopp (26:25.458)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Wilhelm Klopp (26:40.978)
That's a great shot. really should. Yeah, I think next Python app, or I'll deploy it to modal. That's a great idea.

Matt Carey (26:46.67)
There's a really good trick, is to add allow concurrent requests of like 2000 or something, which means you'll only ever have one container open at once. I mean, it depends how many people are going on your platform, but 2000 concurrent requests is a lot, it's quite a lot for a side project. And so you can pretty much always just have a warm start of your container, which is different to like a Lambda, which or a...

Wilhelm Klopp (26:52.145)
Hmm.

Wilhelm Klopp (26:57.138)
you

Wilhelm Klopp (27:01.006)
millions. That is a lot.

Matt Carey (27:14.55)
worker which would always be spun up for a new request.

Wilhelm Klopp (27:18.64)
Yeah, but the worker call starts in Cloudflare, they're super quick, right? Like it's not an issue.

Matt Carey (27:23.372)
Yeah, they're like, they're like, not even, you don't even think about that. It's like a millisecond. Yeah. but we've veered off AI. We've fully veered off AI.

Wilhelm Klopp (27:26.5)
Yeah, yeah. Okay, wait. I got you off track with the Redwood thing as well. so what... Actually, I don't know anything about server components.

Matt Carey (27:38.754)
Okay, no me neither. I just know that it's really easy to end up shipping your backend code to your frontend accidentally. Because I know someone who did that.

Wilhelm Klopp (27:46.354)
Amazing.

Matt Carey (27:51.354)
because I'm like 100 % not qualified to make any sort of distinction on what server components are or how they work. But the Redwood thing, the reason why I brought it up was just the branding is super cool. Have you looked it up? Can you share the ad or something? I don't know.

Wilhelm Klopp (28:03.358)
Oh, I see, I see.

Yeah, I'm on their homepage. It's a bit confusing because did they rename their Redwood project?

Matt Carey (28:17.004)
Yeah, it's this. it's not that. It's Redwood. It's it's RW. Yeah, it's RWSDK.com. It's like

Wilhelm Klopp (28:22.501)
to not this.

Wilhelm Klopp (28:28.018)
WSDK.

Matt Carey (28:30.902)
And they did this, this is an AI reason why they did this. They changed the name very recently. This is the GitHub, yeah. No, but if you go to the normal page, this is the GitHub for the page, for their website. Yeah, if you go back, I can't see it, I can only see GitHub.

Wilhelm Klopp (28:35.59)
but this is the same thing though.

Wilhelm Klopp (28:42.578)
this is the branding you like. OK, OK, OK. That is beautiful branding. sorry, I'm not. Oops.

Matt Carey (28:52.882)
yeah, no, no, that was actually a pretty cool thing they did. So the guy who made Redwood, I've forgotten his name, Peter, maybe he realized that when people were trying to use Redwood in Claude, they, and this is a problem that all open source developers have. It was using the old version of Redwood, the Redwood JS, and it was just getting super confused because they're completely different products. And so what he did, like, which is mad is just completely renamed the package.

Wilhelm Klopp (29:12.476)
Mm-hmm.

Wilhelm Klopp (29:16.53)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Carey (29:22.926)
and like everything to something that was completely different. And so now when they have like an LLMs.txt or something like that and it gets ingested into Claude, Claude doesn't see it as the same thing as much. That's like a different naming convention. And I know TLDRAW have had this problem going from like V1 to V2 where Anthropic just completely spits out TLDRAW V1 like to its heart's content, but never gets V2.

Wilhelm Klopp (29:39.25)
Totally.

Wilhelm Klopp (29:47.76)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matt Carey (29:50.51)
SST are having this problem all the time between v2 and v3, like when they have a massive change. And I think... Yeah. Have you tried the context 7 MCP server? The one from Upstash?

Wilhelm Klopp (29:51.218)
Yeah.

Yeah. I think Dax was talking about this on one of the pods.

Wilhelm Klopp (30:03.442)
man, I was just gonna bring this up actually because it's at the top of my rankings and

Matt Carey (30:10.702)
Dude, this is the solution to Dax's issue. okay, he was on that podcast. Okay, we're gonna slate his podcast now. We picked it up so hard, but now we're gonna slate it. He was on his podcast being like, yeah, we need to work out a way to do very quick fine tuning and all of this stuff. It's like continuous training. Yeah, continuous training is gonna be done by some dude in MIT or some lady in MIT or wherever they are, or it's being done inside Anthropic or OpenAI or Poolside or wherever. And we're never gonna see it for years.

Wilhelm Klopp (30:14.074)
Right?

Wilhelm Klopp (30:20.014)
Ha!

Wilhelm Klopp (30:24.326)
Yeah, like continuous training or whatever.

Wilhelm Klopp (30:39.036)
Right.

Matt Carey (30:41.174)
And so the way to do this now is to use something like this. Like this is super smart. They did such a good job with this upstash. And the fact they shipped this just on the download, it was so cool.

Wilhelm Klopp (30:53.05)
Yeah, so what actually is this? So it's at the top of, as far as I can see, the most popular MCP server. I would bet it's more popular than the server side ones too. Okay, but what, how does it work? It's the only one that works.

Matt Carey (30:58.414)
It's the only one that works. Dude, it's the only one that works.

Matt Carey (31:05.326)
Okay, it's the only one that works. It's the only one that actually works. this is what's impressive. They've got the prompts working. They've created the date structure of tooling. Okay, so how it works is you ask Claude, I want to use TLDRAW and make this new component that exposes this new functionality to TLDRAW. Maybe I wanna make like a seesaw swing inside the TLDRAW canvas. And then,

Wilhelm Klopp (31:23.196)
Mm-hmm.

Wilhelm Klopp (31:33.748)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Carey (31:34.636)
Anthropic by itself would just use the or core would just use the internal knowledge of tealdraw and would use v1 but what it does when you're using upstache or when using this this MCP server is it exposes like a couple of tools and one of them is like get project ID and they haven't indexed all projects I need to work out how they do their indexing I think it's through upstache I think that's what they do but like they expose one tool which is like get project ID and it's like a search

And you then Claude can pick the right project. the right open source project. And then it's like, can search directly over that project's documentation. So for all projects that are indexed, like now Claude has access directly to the documentation of the project, off to the, like it has access to the code of the project. think it has just like really good access, that really good index access.

As someone who's been building Retrieval tooling for quite a while now, like two and a half years, that is really fucking hard and they made it really easy and they packaged it up in an MCP server and I think it's the best use of MCP.

Wilhelm Klopp (32:29.391)
Interesting.

Yeah.

Wilhelm Klopp (32:36.316)
Uh-huh.

Wilhelm Klopp (32:43.036)
That's great. Yeah. Okay. Interesting. So how do they, is there like a master registry of all the docs or?

Matt Carey (32:53.07)
Yeah, I don't know, if you go into source, I think there is an API that calls upstache. as with all, with most of these MCB servers, the server itself is open source, but you can think of the server as like an SDK. So if you go into lib, if you go into lib, you'll see, and then the API, yeah. So it calls.

Wilhelm Klopp (33:06.226)
Okay, interesting.

Wilhelm Klopp (33:12.369)
so what actually is context? Okay, okay, wait, I don't actually know. Or what is upstache?

Matt Carey (33:15.938)
Yeah, I don't know. All of these questions I don't have answers to, but they host a service that allows you to search over open source tech, open source repos. Yeah, so this is it. So they've indexed all of these repos. Yeah. So they've indexed all these repos. It's just super smart. And it's like they put...

Wilhelm Klopp (33:28.034)
Oh, right. So you can actually, oh, they have a cool website.

Wilhelm Klopp (33:38.396)
That's genius, yeah. I'm gonna try using this. Because even if you connect the CloudFlare MCP server, it doesn't like...

Matt Carey (33:42.444)
Yeah.

Matt Carey (33:47.726)
There you go, the agents. Yeah, so it has direct access. Last update, 19 hours ago. Look at that beauty. It has everything.

Wilhelm Klopp (33:57.564)
Yeah, that's cool.

And then what does this searching thing do? Yeah, OK. Interesting.

Matt Carey (34:03.278)
No idea. I think very little. I think it's probably doing some like a BM25 search maybe. Or maybe even just some very basic keyword search. It's probably doing very little. It's probably Ctrl F, let's be honest.

Wilhelm Klopp (34:17.498)
Yeah, okay, now this is great. And this solves a real problem and it solves it today. Yeah, everyone should probably be using this. Although actually, I don't know if that's it's the kind of message I guess. I don't, I'm tired of hearing everyone should be using X. But this seems pretty useful. And like, it seems like there's data to back it up, right? Like it makes sense. And also it's just like very, very popular. And yeah, like.

Matt Carey (34:30.796)
Yeah.

Matt Carey (34:39.372)
Yeah, do you want to talk a bit about your MCP, your like awesome MCP rankers? Yeah, can you show us? Like how do you know that we are? So this is for open source standard IO MCP servers and you're looking at like how often they've been downloaded.

Wilhelm Klopp (34:44.038)
The ranking thing?

Wilhelm Klopp (34:59.888)
Yeah, I mean, it's really straightforward, to be honest. It actually took a long time to build, some annoyingly. But it's really, the idea is very straightforward. It looks at any standard IOU MCP server that's published to NPM or PyPI. And both NPM and PyPI publish download stats. So it literally looks at how often was this MCP server downloaded. Obviously, there's ways to hack it. I feel like there's something off with this Gmail.

MCP server for example because they always have about 59,000 downloads and I just don't know like Who is using like you can see how consistent that download figure is? It's Like I don't know who's like, know, and it's obviously you can hack these statistics because

Matt Carey (35:41.627)
yeah, that's... yeah, that's so broken! Yeah...

Wilhelm Klopp (35:50.195)
because you can just have some CI down. Yeah, exactly. But it does give you some insight into what are the most popular ones. For example, Context 7 has 80k weekly downloads at the moment. And if we go on the package, it actually has grown a bunch. You can see it just ramping up.

Matt Carey (35:51.66)
You can just have a script downloading it. Yeah.

Matt Carey (36:09.548)
Yeah, it's really good. I think it's a YouTuber. Like there's a YouTuber guy who went to work at Upstash. He was the first way that I found out about it. I think he's called Josh. Yeah, no, really cool. Really cool. this is good. I need to check some of this out though. You've done some bits here.

Wilhelm Klopp (36:12.29)
and...

Wilhelm Klopp (36:22.47)
sense. How interesting.

Wilhelm Klopp (36:27.6)
So yeah.

Wilhelm Klopp (36:31.952)
Yeah, and you can track a little bit like, yeah, like Playwright's become way more popular than Puppeteer. And Playwright to me also makes a lot of sense as an MCP. So it's like literally like it controls the browser. Like that's one of the things that you kind of want in, or like that's one of the kind of feedback loops that...

Matt Carey (36:33.973)
MCP remote.

Matt Carey (36:47.148)
Yeah.

Wilhelm Klopp (36:50.98)
is like very useful. Although in practice, yeah, I'm just not sure how well that works either. Like one thing that's been frustrating with both Puppeteer and the Playwright one for me is if you like start it and then you man, and then what ends up happening, right, is it like opens a Chrome instance. And then in that Chrome instance, it like does stuff, right? It controls Chrome. But then if you close that Chrome window, and then even if you kill the MCPs over and restart it, it like doesn't ever work again.

Matt Carey (36:52.012)
Mmm.

Matt Carey (37:08.03)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Carey (37:21.245)
Oh, oh yeah, that's some caching thing of like some random. Yeah, that's awful. This is actually the thing I hate about local MCP service. Like to me, that Playwright MCP, um, okay. So the, the one, the one that's really good, which won't be on your thing is the Cloudflare browser rendering one is pretty decent. It's one of the 13 that they, that they released and it allows you to do all the stuff. It's like the browser based one allows you to do, which is.

Wilhelm Klopp (37:21.668)
So I don't know, like this.

Wilhelm Klopp (37:29.575)
Hmm.

Wilhelm Klopp (37:42.787)
Matt Carey (37:50.53)
like navigate to a new page, click on a button, take a screenshot, like that sort of stuff to move around a browser. And the browser-based one is also quite good. I haven't tried any of the others. I'm assuming browser use has one as well, and a bunch of other places have them, but they make more sense to me. The hosted browsers make more sense to me than running it locally, because...

Imagine you're building some sort of autonomous software engineer, which eventually is like what we're trying to end up with. Do you think that thing is going to be on your machine? And if it is going to be on your machine, it's going to be in some sort of container. I imagine you're going to want to paralyze this a lot more than you could ever do. I don't know. It feels weird to have local servers for that type of debugging process when you could use something external that's going to run a lot faster.

Wilhelm Klopp (38:41.906)
Totally.

Matt Carey (38:46.262)
is going to run on hardware that's dedicated and you're not going to have all of these like weird configuration issues.

Wilhelm Klopp (38:53.586)
Yep, yep, yep. No, I mean, I think for that use case, it makes a lot of sense to have something hosted. think the thing that, like, maybe what we're talking about, like, what we're both, like, trying to build or, like, towards at the moment. Like, I think one thing that's interesting to me is, like, like, at the moment when you're working with AI, right, and you're building, a front-end thing, like, say you're building, like, a React thing, which actually I have been doing for, um, we're trying to launch the Triathlon brand this weekend. Um...

Matt Carey (39:18.004)
yeah?

Wilhelm Klopp (39:19.026)
Yeah, actually I'll share that. I'll put that on the screen real quick. So this is like a React app and it has like a checkout flow and there's some state issues. But you could put in like all of your races and then it gives you like a preview rendering of what your personalized sweater will look like. So it's like a React thing. But one of the annoying things, with working with like AI and

Matt Carey (39:39.406)
Hmm.

Wilhelm Klopp (39:47.078)
like any editor right now, I was using cursor for this, is if there's like a browser bug, it doesn't get fed back into like the AI loop.

Matt Carey (39:57.408)
Okay.

Wilhelm Klopp (39:58.183)
So if there's a bunch of errors in the JavaScript console, like some network request failed, or I don't know, there's some random front-end error, then Cursor doesn't know about it until you paste the error back in. And in theory, with the Playwright MCP server, it could open up the local website, and it could observe the JavaScript console errors and pass those back to Cursor. But that flow, I just haven't been able to work reliably ever yet.

Matt Carey (40:19.756)
Hmm

Matt Carey (40:26.56)
Yeah, I haven't been able to make that work either. I'm looking at this from slightly different angle as well. Like, I'm building that shippy, which is the code of view agent for giggles. And I have this vision. Well, it's not really a vision. It's something that was probably going to happen very soon where, like,

Wilhelm Klopp (40:35.42)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Matt Carey (40:45.588)
are agentic processes, we can call them that, like the agents that are running on demand that do something but then have to report to a human every now and again, are gonna move much more from like agents into like autonomous, like they're gonna gain so much agency that we call them autonomous because they don't actually need a human in the process. But to me, a few things for that have to happen when it comes to Code Review. They have to be able to have all the tools that a human can have. So one of the tools that a human has with Code Review,

reviewing like web dev is they're gonna pull the repo they're gonna launch the application and they're gonna click through the buttons to see if it worked like does the change that someone suggested does it work and I've been trying to get Shippy to do that for like the last self on it I mean I've tried not from not very hard let's be honest but I tried on the weekend a little bit and it's really does struggle to know okay now this is the point where I need to open a browser

Wilhelm Klopp (41:19.58)
Mm-hmm.

Yep. Yep.

Wilhelm Klopp (41:40.516)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Matt Carey (41:40.546)
because this is a flow, this is a real flow that like, and I need to work out how to encapsulate that as like, this is now a real flow. Now we're in browser rendering mode. And maybe this is like back to the, like the old thing that we were thinking ages ago where you needed separate agents rather than like one singular agent flow. Maybe we are going to need separate agents to get around that problem. Like you hand it off to another agent that now has that context and goes off and that's the own, that's its goal.

Wilhelm Klopp (41:58.765)
interesting.

Wilhelm Klopp (42:02.971)
Right.

Matt Carey (42:10.284)
And we kind of, everyone's moved away a little bit from that, think, to like the singular, this is our singular agent that's working at this moment. Yeah, I don't know.

Wilhelm Klopp (42:17.618)
Okay, this is fascinating because, okay, so I thought about this a little bit as well. This issue, because the issue that you're describing is a little bit like the agent doesn't realize that it's now time to gather feedback and open a browser. Which I think is a generic problem as well that it doesn't know when to gather feedback, period. Or it only knows what it's in its context window. it doesn't, the things that are outside of its context window is...

which you might be able to see as the developer, right? Like you can see the JavaScript console error. You can see like some random log that, but it hasn't made its way back into the agentic loop yet. I was, yeah, I was thinking about this a bunch and I think like, I don't know, it's all very complicated and, it's, it's, it's all a bit like unclear at the moment. But the thing that I felt experimenting with is because it's so easy to build your own agent now, right? Because it's Claude is just such a workhorse and you give it just like,

a light system prompt and the tools and then it can go. One thing that I built into like my agent, my agent's called Felix by the way. So we're both building agents. Maybe this could be the name of the podcast, Felix and Shippy. No, that's probably a bad idea. But in Felix, I built a thing now where there is at every turn in the conversation. every time, so I mean, just for context, guess, for everyone who doesn't know like,

Matt Carey (43:32.952)
Okay.

Wilhelm Klopp (43:47.059)
the way this thing tends to work is like, you start with a system prompt, maybe you start with one user message that has a, actually I think both of our agents, they start with like an initial task, but then there's no further user input, right? It's like you now just go as the agent. So you start with an initial task, then you pass it all to Claude, Claude gets to call one of its like 10 tools, then it gets passed back to us, and then now we actually execute the tools. So what I added to my thing,

is that as part of the tool execution, like after the tool execution is done, so like read file, edit file, execute command, I've also like set up some, not hard coded, but like some shell commands that always run deterministically. So at every turn of the conversation, I deterministically run some code, which at the moment just calls colo to like get.

Matt Carey (44:19.406)
you

Wilhelm Klopp (44:45.006)
any errors that happened recently, right? But it's essentially a way to like hard code the feedback gathering process in. That then pulls in the feedback into the context window, like regardless of what else has happened. So at this point, right, you could call in like, you could pull in or you could fire up the browser and say, all right, just gather the errors, like if there are any or not, like if there's something happening in the browser or not, right? And then just

Matt Carey (44:46.765)
Yeah.

Matt Carey (44:57.07)
Yeah, that's clean. I like that. I like that.

Wilhelm Klopp (45:11.782)
and then just pulls it into the context window. And obviously you could see how this could get better by like having another like AI in the middle that determines, okay, is what feedback you've gathered actually relevant to the conversation right now? But you just, which maybe points towards the like multi-agent thing you were speaking about, but just in like a slightly different angle.

Matt Carey (45:27.818)
Yeah, because I've heard the other way that some people get around this problem is they instead of just giving the agent the system prompt with a bunch with the bunch of rules in it in the system prompt, which a lot of people do, they're like, you will do this and then you will do this and then you will do this and this is how you're going to accomplish your task. Here are the tools, go off and go do it. Instead of doing that, they actually have the system prompt is really like the system prompt is just

when you're done with the current step, call this tool to get the next step and then they encode all of those heuristics into like a singular tool. And I'm not sure that tool is the is the method of basically we need some we need some abstraction or some like way of encapsulating those heuristics of what the process should look like and

Wilhelm Klopp (46:02.961)
Right.

you

Wilhelm Klopp (46:21.616)
Right. Yep.

Matt Carey (46:21.806)
I think we started by trying to separate it up into individual tasks. That was like the whole workflow process of 2024. or 2023, 2024. And then 2024, 2025 has been like, get rid of the workflow process, mesh it into one singular LLM process, but move the rules of the workflow into a system prompt. This is my experience anyway. And then I'm wondering, like, are the models going to get better? And so we can actually...

Wilhelm Klopp (46:45.574)
Right, yep.

Matt Carey (46:51.746)
we can actually reduce the amount of heuristics that we give in a system prompt. Can we reduce that? Because the model will work it out. Or are we gonna strive for like greater performance and in which case are we gonna have to build some other type of scaffolding that still gets better as the model gets better? Because that's the issue is like if you build scaffolding that the model outgrows. And so I have no answers here but I'm finding this really interesting as well.

Wilhelm Klopp (47:14.93)
Totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I also have no answers. I do think like the way the context windows and attention work fundamentally, right? It feels like there's a thing where like, like, I think we've all observed this where like you give.

the model some hint about what the issue might be and like suddenly it it knows how to figure it out, right? It's just like, and that's why it's so useful to be quite an experienced engineer giving like guiding it at the moment. think that's how you get like the most out of these things because you can like point them at the right direction.

Matt Carey (47:50.405)
there's yeah yeah there's this um I don't know who made the report it's probably some Gartner thing but I've heard it reference loads where senior like very senior experienced engineers are getting a lot from AI at the moment the ones that have stayed like very current and very individual contributor and then very junior engineers are getting a lot from AI because they're overcoming that initial hurdle of like getting something out there into the world

Wilhelm Klopp (48:05.029)
Mm-hmm.

Wilhelm Klopp (48:13.202)
Mmm.

Matt Carey (48:15.822)
But then the people in the middle are the ones that are actually not getting as much from AI because they are, as soon as they ask AI something, it doesn't do anything like a hundred percent right. It goes against some like initial bias they may have rightly or wrongly, and then they get angry with it. And so I'm finding this quite interesting. Like, do you go around your friends and ask who's using AI or is it like everyone using cursor and stuff?

Wilhelm Klopp (48:25.625)
Right. Yeah.

Wilhelm Klopp (48:32.678)
Totally.

Wilhelm Klopp (48:38.066)
man, yeah, it's fascinating actually. And I will say also in my own use of this stuff, I think there are some days where I'm like, wow, this is incredible, it's the future, I can do so much more. And then there's days where I'm like, none of this fucking works. This is complete garbage, I just wasted a whole day. They talked about this in the last, how about tomorrow pot as well? Like is AI the best or is it the worst? Because at least when you wasted a day in the old land, sometimes you go down a rabbit hole, right?

Matt Carey (49:06.446)
Hmm.

Wilhelm Klopp (49:07.93)
and you realize this wasn't the way to engineer a thing, like in the pre-AI world. At least you had the satisfaction of the flow state engineering for a day, even if you didn't have anything to show for it at the end. But now, you can easily waste a day in this awful waiting for the AI context switching, getting distracted mode. Yeah.

Matt Carey (49:24.78)
Yeah, get reset. Get reset, dash, dash hard, go back to main, sack it all off and start again.

Wilhelm Klopp (49:30.512)
But this is actually, but that, so in my supermass, I think there's days for me where I'm like, this is shit. Like this is not fun and unproductive. And like, I wish I had just like not used AI for this at all today. So like that totally happens for me. And then yeah, this question about like how everyone, like how all the friends are using.

like what tools they're using. I actually think there's a huge variance. Like I was, I think I saw on Twitter like some friends, like they hadn't even heard of Cursor's agent mode or like used the Cursor's agent mode like a month ago. And then there's some more, there's some friends who are like less technical who are like loving Cursor and like getting stuff done with it.

So I think it was actually a question I had for you as well. Like, where do you think most people are in like the AI adoption curve? Because I think we're at the very like bleeding edge of this stuff and playing around with things like you and I are. And a lot of people are like, like working with agents is a very different workflow, right? Like I think the copilot tab complete thing is like a much more natural workflow. I think like a lot of people are probably using that now, but maybe not even...

Matt Carey (50:30.594)
Hmm.

Wilhelm Klopp (50:41.926)
the majority yet? I don't know, like curious, like where do think most people sit right now? Like are most people, most engineers in your world using agent mode?

Matt Carey (50:51.936)
I in my company it's about 50-50. We have, we're actually using SimplePoll. We have like a bunch of polls that we're running. I told you about this, right? This is...

Wilhelm Klopp (50:58.714)
Nice! my god, literally all of my products were mentioned in this first podcast episode. How great could it be?

Matt Carey (51:04.568)
Dude, this is why, no, I messaged you about this. I was like, we're using Simpopo because I'm trying to work out AI adoption at work. And I'm trying to work out how we can like align on cursor rules or align on AI rules. Because I think the rules files, the rules files, the documentation, the standardized documentation inside the code base, this is gonna be like the killer. have you, in the future, in like six months or a year, you're gonna be like, I have a maintainable code base if.

Wilhelm Klopp (51:18.758)
Yeah, you mentioned this, yes, yeah.

Wilhelm Klopp (51:25.308)
Yep.

Matt Carey (51:33.718)
I have rules files that describe all of the patterns in my code base. I have maybe like MCP servers that work on the external tools that I use and all or something like this. And I'm going to have an unmaintainable code base if I have non consistent patterns, no rules files, no documentation. And the difference in output is going to be huge. I think we can think not writing rules files is now technical debt. And so this is why I'm trying to

Wilhelm Klopp (51:53.628)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Wilhelm Klopp (52:00.328)
Yeah.

Matt Carey (52:01.886)
see in my company like who's using what like what what what rules files format should we align on dude i actually have to run i have a hard stop it was a minute ago but we're gonna do this again this is really good fun

Wilhelm Klopp (52:10.81)
no. man, we have so much more to talk about. There's like another 20 things on the list. Okay, cool. Sweet. Well, great initial part with you. See you, bye.

Matt Carey (52:19.726)
Alright, I'll catch you in a bit dude. Bye!